20210717 Interview with GBC SPT (Strategic Planning Team)

*20210717 ISKCON GBC STRATEGIC PLANNING TEAM, MY FIRST YEARS AS A GBC BY HIS HOLINESS JAYAPATĀKĀ SWAMI MAHĀRĀJA, ŚRĪDHĀMA, MĀYĀPUR, INDIA*

mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ paṅguṁ laṅghayate girim
yat-kṛpā tam ahaṁ vande śrī-guruṁ dīna-tāraṇam
hariḥ oṁ tat sat

Kaunteya dāsa (Host): Most warm welcome. Thank you for being with us.

Jayapatākā Swami: I am happy to be with you. I offer my respects, my obeisances, to Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Kaunteya dāsa: Please let us know how did you become a GBC?

Jayapatākā Swami: In 1977 His Divine Grace Abhay Caran Bhakti Vedānta Swami Prabhupāda had nominated me as a GBC. And of course we went through a system of assistant GBC, acting GBC, it took 3 years to have a vote. I think I was the last GBC to be appointed by Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Kaunteya dāsa: You were also with Śrīla Prabhupāda in the last meetings that he had in May 1977 in Vṛndāvana.

Jayapatākā Swami: Also in the Gaura Pūrṇimā we had the GBC meeting and then Śrīla Prabhupāda was there and at that time, he did not tell us that he was leaving. And for different reasons, he appointed me as a GBC. That time my zone was just Eastern India. Bengal, Bangladesh and Orissa.

Kaunteya dāsa: You are on the GBC since the last 44 years. What difference do you see between the workings of the GBC then and now.

Jayapatākā Swami: Of course, the GBC meetings were confidential and although I was in Māyāpur, and serving Śrīla Prabhupāda, I never knew went on in the GBC meetings. It was a big mystery. Then in 1977 I attended my first GBC meeting. I was a bit shocked, that they did not really have any rules of order, to observe or protocols. One person would shout over another. Now they follow strict rules and order. One has to raise his hand and speak, if he wants to get called on. So like that there is a whole system, and meetings are much more Kṛṣṇa conscious. We start of with prayers to Śrīla Prabhupāda and we read from Śrīla Prabhupāda books. Of course these things are all taken for granted now, but in the beginning, unfortunately there are very few people left who may remember, but that time the meetings were a bit more informal.

Kaunteya dāsa: Once you told me the how Chair would bang with a wooden stick on a metal bucket!

Jayapatākā Swami: Yes, when I went, Kīrtanānanda was Chairman and he had his walking stick, and to get attention or to get order, he hit his walking stick against a water bucket! Then we gradually got chairs and tables. Then if somebody was too emotional or too what to say out of control, the Chairman had a little dog, stuffed dog, to give that person the mad dog award, he got the award, mad dog award. Now the meetings are not like that. They are very sober, very appropriate I would say.

Kaunteya dāsa: Your years as a GBC, both as a zonal secretary and as a member of the GBC Bodies and meetings, what was the most difficult experience, period or episode that you had as a GBC?

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, I would say two. First, losing Śrīla Prabhupāda was - it is indescribable. I was in a state of shock for maybe a year or so, at least, because we were totally dependent on Śrīla Prabhupāda. He was like our real GBC, and we just served under his shelter. And suddenly he was gone, and it was very bewildering for us, what should we actually do. That was maybe incomparably the most difficult time. After that, a number of my GBC colleagues, had fallen down, they were not able to maintain the sannyāsī vows, there was a big, somehow the GBC gurus were at that time gṛhasthas, but then they were told to keep up with the Jones or something. There is an American saying keep up with the Jones, means keep up with the peers. Somebody asked for sannyāsīs, so the gṛhasthas they thought they had to take sannyāsa, but taking sannyāsa is a different thing and it is not so easy to shift from a ghrastha mode to a sannyāsī mode. That left our movement in a kind of chaos. So that was the second most difficult year.

Kaunteya dāsa: That would be in the early 80s mostly?

Jayapatākā Swami: I don’t know - mid 80s may be. I remember in 1987.

Kaunteya dāsa: Not many people know that a lot of the ISKCON laws in the books at least relatively a lot have been written by you, proposals you submitted to the GBC. So how did you deal in the cases where you are the proposer to the GBC but the GBC did not like it, did not accept it?

Jayapatākā Swami: The first thing was that yes, I studied Śrīla Prabhupāda rules of order and different rules of order and then adapted that to our particular situation. And that they called me as the ‘parliamentarian’. Because there was really no system. Of course, specific to the question you asked - what if I had made proposal and the GBC did not accept. That would happen quite often, then I would slightly tweak it and submit it again! Some proposals like that were submitted maybe for 3 years, and maybe third year it would get changed enough that everybody liked it and then it would get passed! Now our system is that we take an initial proposal, it is seen by the deputies and people comment on it. Like this, so naturally goes through some more things. The whole process usually happens, the changes happen in the whole resolution process. Like one proposal I lost, next year I put up another proposal or two years later, and that was accepted.

Kaunteya dāsa: So if I understood you correctly it was a question of people becoming familiar with the new idea, the new perspective and you were seeing things over one two three years to be accepted, Also doing some modifications to make it more acceptable, more palatable.

Jayapatākā Swami: I remember there was one issue I had the help of His Grace Ravindra Svarūpa prabhu. He understood what I wanted, and he presented in a way that the GBC could accept. So part of this was to be a bit flexible to change some of the details. Anyway I heard you have many questions, so.

 Kaunteya dāsa: For the last 3 or 4 episodes we focused on what has been called the zonal ācārya days. Can show you on the screen a picture from 1978. Group photo of the GBCs in Māyāpur. Same place, another picture where the 11 first initiating spiritual masters or ācāryas they were there. My question is because we are exploring this theory, how was Māyāpur different because it was already started with two gurus?

Jayapatākā Swami: As I said, there was a lot of confusion after the departure of Śrīla Prabhupāda. And so he had made eleven ācāryas or eleven initiating gurus. So, in most or some parts of the world, say there was some GBC zonal secretary, but he was not a guru. So he had to have some guru visit his area to initiate their new devotees. So, as a result Māyāpur was unique because we had two gurus. I remember I was asked to go to South USA by the non guru GBC there. Then I was asked by Hrdyananda Mahārāja to go to parts of south America. That he said due to his health reasons he couldn’t go. And he thought well since I am working in India and south Asia, so I would be able to deal with the situation in Latin America. So he asked me to go to Peru, Chile, Bolivia, different countries. So we had a situation where we had may be 30 zones but only 11 gurus. So we became the zonal gurus. That was the situation. But in Māyāpur, you had your choice. They had two gurus, so they could choose either one. Of course our present system is that you can choose any guru in any part of the world. But at that time, maybe you were more encouraged to take a guru who was already available. If you don’t want to take from a guru outside, then in some places, they did not like that. That was kind of confusing.

Kaunteya dāsa: Now as you mentioned in the years after Śrīla Prabhupāda left, culminating in 1987 some of the gurus, some of the sannyāsīs could not maintain sannyāsa vows, and there was a lot of difficulties, as you said they were very critical years and there was also at one point some discussion amongst Śrīla Prabhupāda disciples about reforming the GBC, reforming the gurus, there were papers written, and as you remember in 1987 there was a 50 man committee authorized by the GBC to anlayse the situation, to make recommendations and so on. What do you remember from those years? You could say guru reforms, GBC reform, culminating in the 1987 meetings?

Jayapatākā Swami: You know in the years coming up to that because of a genuine confusion what we should do because we were in unchartered waters, there were areas where we had no experience with. Śrīla Prabhupāda was our ācārya, and we wanted to establish the GBC system. So we went, some of our members had gone to different God brothers of Śrīla Prabhupāda, people in the Gauḍīya maṭha, and so they were saying, oh how could a non-guru appoint a guru? But I personally thought that Śrīla Prabhupāda said that the GBC should be the ultimate managing authority in ISKCON. So this idea that the gurus are special and should appoint other gurus, that would not be what Śrīla Prabhupāda wanted. So like that there were different confusions. So just to clarify who was in line with Śrīla Prabhupāda’s thinking, we made this 50-man committee. So the GBC did that to keep up the principle that the GBC was the ultimate managing authority. I remember that I was put into different groups with different questions, but in a nice way of putting you could say it as interrogation. They did that to all the GBC and at the end they recommended to the GBC what should be done. I don’t actually remember somehow I survived that process. But actually the recommendation was - you have to look back and see the history, what we finally resolved. But the idea was that the GBCs should be really a representative of Śrīla Prabhupāda’s thinking.

Kaunteya dāsa: What kept you enthusiastic and remain in devotional service even in the midst of such troubling situations, even when? so many other were falling down from bhakti? Sandeep Singh

Jayapatākā Swami: Śrīla Prabhupāda used the example of a flock of birds flying. There may be a lead bird, he takes some of the air draft, but by and large all the birds have to fly by themselves. So we lost our lead bird, who was Śrīla Prabhupāda but we had to keep on flying. And we had Śrīla Prabhupāda’s vāṇī, his instructions and I felt very much indebted to Śrīla Prabhupāda. So somehow I want to keep flying no matter what. And even in Śrīla Prabhupāda’s presence sometime some God brothers would have difficulties. But I kept up with trying to serve Śrīla Prabhupāda. That is why in 1977 he put me on the Executors to his Will. He put me as a Bhaktivedanta Swami Charitable Trust Life Chairman. Like that various services. I felt that I had sufficient responsibilities to serve Śrīla Prabhupāda. And I had to try my level best to carry on and I think that the credit actually goes to Śrīla Prabhupāda. That somehow or another I have been able to continue, it is because of his mercy.

Kaunteya dāsa: In this connection of taking up responsibility we have a question from: Vraja Vilāsa Gaurāṅga Das: Guru Mahārāja can you elaborate about the importance of accepting responsibility in our movement?

Jayapatākā Swami: You see bhakti yoga is all about doing something for the pleasure of Kṛṣṇa. There is a verse which says, hrisikena hrisikesa sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate - that we use our senses to serve the master of our senses. So taking some responsibility to serve Śrīla Prabhupāda and the guru paramparā is most important. And I remember that Śrīla Prabhupāda he would travel around the world and some people would follow him. He would declare in his lectures that those people who follow me are not the most dear to me. Those who stay somewhere and take some responsibility they are very dear to me. So I took those words that if you want to be successful in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, you should take responsibility, and if you don’t want to take responsibility then you are like a bhajanānandī, you want your own liberation. Like Prahlāda mahārāja he preached even to the children of the demons. So that way he was put through a lot of tests he was put through but he took the responsibility to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness even in the school of Hiraṇyakaśipu.

Gaurāṅga Mādhurī: What is your practical suggestion for a disciple, if there is an apparent confusion between the instruction of his spiritual master and the mandate of GBC? How should one deal with that situation for a viable solution?

Jayapatākā Swami: Of course the decision of the GBC Body would be considered as something that may represent Śrīla Prabhupāda. We tried to have different checks and balances like in the time of Śrīla Prabhupāda established some temple presidents meeting and they could send back a decision to the GBC Body, by a two third vote. But then the GBC decision would be final. So similarly we recently instituted the SABHĀ. To have a similar fall on like the president’s meeting and we have representatives of the legal council, and different industries. So there is some check and balance. Hard to say if there is a conflict between what the GBC said and what the guru said, that is definitely a confusing issue. You could ask the guru what he said, ask some representative of the GBC, see what they say. Ultimately we should follow the GBC but that is a grey area, we have to see the details, but generally in these cases we would lean towards the GBCC but we should be clear of the philosophical basis. Śrīla Prabhupāda said that anyone of you may make a mistake. But generally he would believe that the majority of the GBC would decide correctly. So in that case, our guru is one person, if we have the genuine concern we can take it up.

Kaunteya dāsa: audio break

Jayapatākā Swami: In most cases, I would think that if the GBC member or the individual guru has a different idea then we would want to follow the GBC. But then we don’t do it so blindly, we ask questions. People thought that ISKCON devotees are brainwashed. But they did a study and found that some devotees are independently intelligent and think about things. And even being a guru you have a duty to explain things to your disciples. If they have any questions.

Lalitangi Rādhā devī dāsī: In your experience what are the challenges for cooperation and what is your advice for the future generation?

Jayapatākā Swami: Śrīla Prabhupāda said the way you can express how much you love him is how well you cooperate. And that cooperation comes with communication. So it maybe important to communicate with others, to hear, to say, like that to communicate. And try to see how you can cooperate. You want to cooperate, to please Kṛṣṇa and the guru paramparā. So the challenge would be if we identify ourselves with some material things. Like bhakti yoga means sarvo padir vinir muktam tat parāt yena nirmalam - free of all material designations. If we think we are man woman, this and that, race, nationality any kind of material designations, then that can be an obstacle for cooperation. We should think that we are dāsa dāsa anudāsa of Kṛṣṇa and his pure devotees. Hare Kṛṣṇa! Thank you very much!

Jayapatākā Swami: If the people how they liked the program if they tell me or you, I would appreciate that. I have the Jayapatākā Swami app which you can download on Apple or Android. So now I am going on for some classes now. But I am also at your service for future meetings. Oṁ Tat Sat. Thank you!