20201025 Zoom Meeting with Bhakti Tīrtha Swami Mahārāja Disciple

mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ paṅguṁ laṅghayate girim
yat-kṛpā tam ahaṁ vande śrī-guruṁ dīna-tāraṇam
hariḥ oṁ tat sat

Bhakti Tīrtha Swami Mahārāja kī jaya!

Jayapatākā Swami: When Bhakti Tīrtha Swami was going to distribute books, at that time behind the Iron Curtain, Śrīla Prabhupāda called all of us and asked us to give blessings. We said, “Who are we to give blessings?” He said, “You know Kṛṣṇa will listen to you also.” So at that time we prayed that he be successful in his book distribution. He was distributing books in the libraries. At that time, his name was Ghanaśyāma dāsa and later he became my close friend. And somehow his Vyāsa-pūjā falls during the Gaura Pūrṇimā festival. So we would arrange a humble kind of Vyāsa-pūjā ceremony on the roof. A cake, guru-pūjā which takes places. There were a very few people who could understand me, but he was one such person, and he gave me good and valuable advice as a Godbrother and then I went to see him in Gītā Nagarī. He made three requests – he told me that I should take care of his disciples and give them śikṣā if they wanted. I should visit West Africa and I should go to some festival in Gītā Nagarī. So I visited West Africa several times and I went for the samādhi inauguration in Gītā Nagarī.

And I am trying to take care of Bhakti Tīrtha Swami’s disciples. Someone was telling me how they felt unfortunate. I was saying that having Bhakti Tīrtha Swami’s association, what to speak of his initiation, one is never unfortunate. Actually, he is such a rare soul that by having his association, we get purified. So, we are very fortunate to have had his association. It is kind of we are deprived of that association, it is a matter of lamenting. But one is not unfortunate. Because having his association is certainly a great fortune. So I had his brief video of a class he gave in Nairobi. I sent that around in my Jayapatākā Swami App. If there are more such short videos of him speaking, then I can send that. I think that we should all try to spread the glories of His Holiness Bhakti Tīrtha Swami. Please use this opportunity that you have to follow in his footsteps. He was a very dynamic preacher, and he was very dedicated to Śrīla Prabhupāda.

I was seeing that in Gītā Nagarī, by the influence of the cancer, his bones had become very thin. And he was going down over the dirt road to give class, taking great risk. I told the devotees that they should go up and hear his class. Why put him in danger? So like that, he was very kind and I could stay overnight with him and in many different ways he helped him and I certainly feel indebted to him. I hope that all his disciples and devotees keep up their commitments to him and try to expand the saṅkīrtana movement as he did. Hare Kṛṣṇa! I am happy to take questions.

Question: [inaudible] Why is it so important to have śikṣā-gurus if the spiritual master is still present? How do the śikṣā-gurus help us?

Jayapatākā Swami: It depends how advanced one is that if a person feels direct contact with the śikṣā-guru then that is alright. Sometimes if they have doubt or need some help then also having a śikṣā-guru may help. Many of my initiated disciples have accepted Bhakti Tīrtha Swami as their śikṣā-guru. The point is that – I think there is a book which says that whole village helps to make a person. So we have our dīkṣā-guru and our śikṣā-gurus who all work together to help us. The śikṣā-guru should not contradict the dīkṣā-guru. But they may support the dīkṣā-guru. So someone like that, we may feel the need and they may consider that the dīkṣā-guru is speaking through the śikṣā-guru. Anyway, Lord Kṛṣṇa speaks through the dīkṣā-guru and śikṣā-guru to help the devotee get back. Of course, Kṛṣṇa says that He gives intelligence to get back to Him. Still He also gives dīkṣā (guru) and śikṣā-gurus to help us. So we take whatever help Kṛṣṇa gives us and that is positive.

Question: What is the role the blessings play in helping us advance in our spiritual life? And how do we attract and receive the blessings required to achieve [inaudible].

Jayapatākā Swami: You see without the blessings of Nitāi one cannot get the mercy of Lord Caitanya. Without the mercy of Lord Caitanya, one cannot get the mercy of love of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. How do we get the mercy of Nitāi? By the mercy of the dīkṣā-guru, śikṣā-guru we get the mercy of Nitāi. So like that, we try. One time I was in an Ardha-Kumbha-Melā in 1971 with Śrīla Prabhupāda. He was explaining how by achieving Kṛṣṇa consciousness one has already gone through the different steps of pious activities. One devotee said. “I look back at my life and I don’t see I have done any pious activity, I am just a sinner. Then how did I get devotional service?” Then Śrīla Prabhupāda answered, “I made your good fortune for you.” By Śrīla Prabhupāda’s blessings we could get what otherwise was not obtainable. And similarly, by Bhakti Tīrtha Swami’s blessings, people who otherwise did not have devotional service, got it. That is how we say humble, because we don’t take any credit for ourselves, we consider that anything we do right is by the mercy of guru.

Question: When one connects with their dīkṣā-guru, are they eternally connected with that jīva?

Jayapatākā Swami: We understand that the connection is ātmā to ātmā. That is soul to soul. The soul is eternal, therefore the connection is eternal. In the spiritual world the spiritual master connects you with the associate of the Lord according to your rasa. And then after that he is always available as an old friend, but he gives over the responsibility to some associate of the Lord. Until we get back to Godhead, then he is our connection. So we understand that Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura, he had some attachment for Cintāmaṇī and Cintāmaṇī advised him to seek out Kṛṣṇa. So then after that he changed his life. Śrīla Prabhupāda said in the purport that maybe Cintāmaṇī was his guru from his previous life who came just to deliver him. He said in the purport, he might maybe come back. So all the disciples of Bhakti Tīrtha Swami should be careful to follow his instructions, so that you can go back to Godhead and don’t make him come back.

Question: Some say śikṣā should replace dīkṣā in case of disappearance of dīkṣā. Is it so and what is the dynamic in these relationships? If you can elaborate more on the role of śikṣā-guru, you said he should not contradict the mood of the initiating spiritual master.

Jayapatākā Swami: One has only one dīkṣā-guru, one may have a number of śikṣā-gurus. So, once you are initiated, you are connected to the paramparā. But the śikṣā-guru does not replace the dīkṣā-guru. He just helps and you see, the dīkṣā-guru takes responsible for the karma of the disciple. If the śikṣā-guru gives a wrong instruction, he is responsible. Just like a doctor if they give a wrong prescription, he is charged with malpractice. But other than that, the śikṣā-guru is not directly responsible. That is why the dīkṣā-guru situation is more important in some ways. So, the śikṣā-guru helps the dīkṣā-guru to get the disciple back to Godhead. That is my understanding.

Question: Mahārāja both you and gurudeva are exceptional and progressive in your outlook of congregation and community development. With many situations preventing us from meeting in person, what is your vision of the shape and structure devotee saṅga will or can take?

Jayapatākā Swami: Having this program where you, disciples of Bhakti Tīrtha Swami get together, and discuss his glories, different relevant things, I think that it is a very good way to have association. And previously we would have some local area congregation but now all over the world you can have zoom congregations. [A-side: So that way how many are online now? 34.] We can probably have lot more. I think in Gītā Nagarī we have more. I guess this will not be convenient for Australia or the East. But for Africa, India, Europe, America, it should be okay.

Question: Since gurudeva’s departure unfortunately, many of us are keeping connected around the world and in our local yātrās and disciples of Bhakti Tīrtha Mahārāja. But we know that there are many who since gurudeva left, they also kind of left. They have become very busy with life. They have lost touch with devotees. We know where they are, we tried to reach out, but could you give us some suggestions how we can get them to reconnect with the God family and reconnect with Guru Mahārāja and service?

Jayapatākā Swami: This is a problem even when the guru is present. Some people may be distant. So, that way, you know, personally talking, outreach to them, reaching out to them, talking to them. In this material world, people don’t care for each other much. Just the fact that we care may also touch many people. I think in the Nāmahaṭṭa, the marketplace of the holy name, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura had 20 different employees. So one’s job was hair cutter (barber), and the other was a washer man. So people said, why such lowly people! But Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura said no, they are very important. If someone is unshaven, that means they spiritually neglected their vows, the barber is the one who shaves them up and makes them properly situated. Then similarly one being in the material world, you get dirt, your clothes become soiled. Someone may be in spiritual life but gradually he may become contaminated. That is where the washer man comes in, by his association, he is able to make someone’s consciousness fresh, make them enthusiastic for spiritual life. So maybe some people feel, “Oh my guru left, no one cares for me!” So we show them we care! Because you are representing Bhakti Tīrtha Mahārāja. And definitely he cares. I don’t remember any more caring person than he was! So, what is the actual tip – I think it is individual to individual case. We have to reach out. If there is any way I can help, tell me, I will try to contact that person. Recently we have been helping Bhakti Cāru Mahārāja’s disciples because Bhakti Tīrtha Mahārāja disciples, it has been many years since he left. But if there is a need, I am always ready to help.

Question: Having unflinching faith in the words of the guru empowers the disciple to do amazing things. We have seen this in the disciples of Śrīla Prabhupāda like yourself and Bhakti Tīrtha Swami. How can we develop such unflinching faith in the words of the guru?

Jayapatākā Swami: Śrīla Prabhupāda used to say that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is a gradual process. Gradually as we depend on the guru, depend on Kṛṣṇa, then he reciprocates. So in that way, our faith increases more and more. It is not that it is overnight. For some people it may be overnight but mostly for others it is a gradual process. So, we see that by following Bhakti Tīrtha Swami’s instructions, which were in line with Śrīla Prabhupāda’s instructions, naturally one applied for the situation present – which applied – he gave the instructions applicable to that situation. And that helped the people. That is what increases our faith.

Vrajalīlā devī dāsī: I wanted to share when I was serving my gurudeva Bhakti Tīrtha Mahārāja how he loved you and appreciated you and how much he respected you as a senior brother. And we saw his example of how he served you. How he so much desired to be of service to you. We also saw how much you served him. There were so many times when we were able to be a part of our Guru Mahārāja’s Vyāsa-Pūjā in Māyāpur that you had arranged for him. So much love and care. And when you came to Gītā Nagarī and arranged with us for the samādhi, there was so much love that you have for our gurudeva. So we want to thank you for that sincerely, from our hearts, we thank you. Now I will ask my question: We see that, I believe it is Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja in Caitanya-caritāmṛta when he speaks about his śikṣā, he mentions several śikṣā-gurus. I believe his śikṣā-gurus were the six Gosvāmīs. Please correct me if I am not right on that. I was just wondering what is the advantage of disadvantage of having many śikṣā-gurus in the 21^st century?

Jayapatākā Swami: It depends on one’s faith. If you have faith in many and they all help you, then that is nice. Just having śikṣā-gurus and you don’t have faith or if they are not favorable to the dīkṣā-guru, it may be confusing. Otherwise, having many different helpers is like, in a joint family you have different uncles, aunties, older brothers, sisters. Amongst yourselves your brothers and sisters. And amongst the śikṣā-gurus are like uncles. So, no harm in having friendly uncles. Like, Vidura was the uncle of Yudhiṣṭhira. But he was also his friend. Dhṛtarāṣṭra was not but he was also his uncle. But he was not such a friend. So you should choose your śikṣā-guru based on certain criteria. If they are favorable, no harm in having many. Does that answer your question?

Question: We are encouraged to be careful of offences. What should devotees do when they find their godbrothers and godsisters leaving ISKCON for ṛtvik philosophy?

Jayapatākā Swami: If they are leaving Kṛṣṇa consciousness that is one thing. We should try to help them to come back. If they are leaving for some deviant philosophy, the point is that recently we were discussing with Bangalore Hill temple and basically, we all in ISKCON, we want to keep Śrīla Prabhupāda in the center. But we don’t believe that Śrīla Prabhupāda gave posthumous initiations. So the ṛtviks think that they are disciples of Śrīla Prabhupāda. We also think that, but we think that Śrīla Prabhupāda is our predominant śikṣā-guru. But not that he is our dīkṣā-guru. Śrīla Prabhupāda said that his disciples would be the gurus of their disciples. And he said that his grand-disciples would be the disciples of my disciples. So we are trying to bring them back into the fold. But Śrīla Prabhupāda said that we should stay in ISKCON. So they want to keep Śrīla Prabhupāda in the center, that is alright. That is what we want also, that is what Bhakti Tīrtha Swami wanted. Just the question that like Christians say Jesus died for our sins. So we go on sinning, He has already died for us. The ṛtviks say Śrīla Prabhupāda will take all their karma. Where does it say that? If someone goes into the deviant philosophy, so we can understand what is deviant and convince them to go back. Hare Kṛṣṇa!