19850127 Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.23.44

The following is a lecture given by His Holiness Jayapatākā Swami on January 27, 1985 in Honolulu, Hawaii. The class begins with a reading from the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, 3rd Canto, 23rd Chapter, 44th Verse.

vibhajya navadhātmānaṁ
mānavīṁ suratotsukām
rāmāṁ niramayan reme
varṣa-pūgān muhūrtavat
[ŚB 3.23.44]  

Translation: After coming back to his hermitage, he divided himself into nine personalities just to give pleasure to Devahūti, the daughter of Manu, who was eager for sex life. In that way he enjoyed with her for many, many years, which passed just like a moment.

*Translation with repetition*

Purport: Here the daughter of Svāyambhuva Manu, Devahūti, is described as suratotsuka. After traveling with her husband all over the universe, in Mount Meru and the beautiful gardens of the heavenly kingdoms, she naturally became sexually stimulated, and in order to satisfy her sexual desire, Kardama Muni expanded himself into nine forms. Instead of one, he became nine, and nine persons had sexual intercourse with Devahūti for many, many years. It is understood that the sexual appetite of a woman is nine times greater than that of a man. That is clearly indicated here. Otherwise, Kardama Muni would have had no reason to expand himself into nine. Here is another example of yogic power. As the Supreme Personality of Godhead can expand Himself in millions of forms, a yogī can also expand up to nine forms, but not more than that. Another example is that of Saubhari Muni; he also expanded himself into eight forms. But however powerful a yogī may be, he cannot expand himself into more than eight or nine forms. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, however, can expand Himself into millions of forms, ananta-rūpa — innumerable, countless forms — as stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā. No one can compare to the Supreme Personality of Godhead by any conceivable energetic manifestation of power.

Thus end the Bhaktivedanta purport to text 44, chapter 23, canto 3, of the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, in the chapter entitled “Devahūti’s lamentation”.

Jayapatākā Swami: Now we are discussing the history of Kardama muni, Devahūti, and ultimately the incarnation of Kapila Muni.

As I remember that Kardama muni had performed austerities for a long time, and finally Viṣṇu Himself appeared, or was it Brahmā? Appeared to him and blessed him, and then Kardama muni married the daughter. He wanted… He didn’t feel ready to immediately take up renunciation. There was still some seed of desire in his heart, but he didn’t want to get married except to someone who was going to be able to assist him becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious or God conscious. He didn’t want to marry just anyone, didn’t want to fall down from the spiritual path, and the ultimate issue. So he had a blessing from the Lord Viṣṇu to get Devahūti as a wife, and to enjoy with her for some time, and then he would renounce, but that the Lord would Himself become her son to give the transcendental science to the worth.

Of the pastimes, where Kardama muni has taken Devahūti around the universe, showing through his mystic powers different aspects of the universe. So now they are now about to produce progeny, so they are enjoying their material happiness, sexual happiness, in their gṛhastha-āśrama. So there are many instructions contained within these pastimes.

Of course, if we read on we find out that in spite of... nobody who can have a husband like Kardama muni, especially in this Kali Yuga, who is able to take his wife not only to the movies (laughs), or down to the drive-in or something in his whatever, what you call Porsche? You see Kardama muni, in his special ... airplane, created from his mystic power took his wife all over the universe, showed her that here are the heavenly planets, here is how the universe is, is set up, and then to give her ... physical satisfaction, even he expanded himself into nine forms. So there is no normal, there is nobody practically speaking in this... in this… world today who has got that type of... mystical power.

Still at the very end, Devahūti was lamenting that ... actually she had failed to get from her husband spiritual knowledge. And so in the end they both did tapasya together to get the Lord as their son. So although it is here it says muhūrtavat, material happiness may occupy our time, make it go very quickly, but then we are still right back where we started from. It just passes the time very nicely. It may be able to satisfy one’s urges temporarily, so that is good if someone is very agitated by material desires to experience what is the actual situation of material desire, what is the... what is its limitations, what is the extent of it?

So here they are not leaving any tone... any stone unturned, so to speak, within the regulative principles, they are fully experiencing material happiness in a bonafide way for a gṛhastha, with that type of blessings and mystic powers that he has, then ultimately of course their goal is to become … liberated. At least that was Devahūti’s goal, and that is also his goal. So obviously we can’t imitate Kardama muni in any respect. Similarly, we don’t in our short life, they are the living lifetime, lifespan of the demigods, so for them many, many years is still just like only a few days as compared to us who are only living just 60-70-80- 50 years or less. For us a few years is a long time, it is a big percentage of our life, but for them many years is nothing. Because they are living in that, in that age, they are living in a totally different … lifespan. Nonetheless they are also trying to utilize the overall period of their life to become God conscious.

So this is one of the reasons why a person enters gṛhastha life. I remember once Srila Prabhupāda asked me to leave the room, he was counselling one of the gṛhasthas, and he gave some advice on how to … practice the gṛhastha life, gave some book, different things. So when one is in gṛhastha life, there is a license for enjoying sense gratification. But on the ultimate issue, it is supposed to lead one to renunciation. One may directly enter renunciation, but that is very rare.

Normally the material desires plague one very strongly, and so it is the safer way to enter into gṛhastha life, if you have a desire for a progeny, to have followers, to have a family, then that can be dovetailed by being married, and having children, and raising those children in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In fact, in Sanskrit, the word putra or putrī the two names for a son or a daughter means that the offspring or the put who can ... putra, put means hell and tra means to deliver. Putrī same thing only in the feminine. So, someone who can deliver the parents.

In this say, in this case Devahūti’s son was Godhead Himself. He was definitely capable of liberating everyone, what to speak of His parents. Bhaktivinoda Thakur had ...as a son Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. Chaitanya Das had as a son Srinivas Acharya on the order of Lord Chaitanya. So sometimes even the gṛhasthas are given order to have a child by the guru, or by some great Vaiṣṇava. And those children, the hope of the parent is that the child would be a transcendental personality. Of course, from this first connection, we will find out that the offspring were girls, and then they did a special tapasya, special penance some later. Lord Kapila, He came on His own free will.

So similarly, we should try to follow the overall life example of Kardama muni and Devahūti when entering into the gṛhastha-āśrama, never losing sight you see of the ultimate goal of becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious. And since our lifespan is so short, therefore if we were to completely engage in this type of activities Kardama muni and Devahūti did of sexual relations for many, many years with no holds barred so to speak. Then because of our lack of our austerities, the chance of us totally forgetting spiritual life would be very, very great.

Kardama muni for thousands of years had performed austerities, he had these mystic powers. So just like Bhīma, he wanted... he said it’s too difficult for me to observe every Ekādaśī, just give me one Ekādaśī once a year, I can just do it, you know, do a super one, because I may... it gets hard to keep track. (laughter) He was more in... not so much in the brahminical mode, but more in a mode of passion, but a pure devotee no doubt.

So he got a benediction like you know... what in India is the hottest day of the year, the day in the month of May, that without water, without sleeping, 24 hours continually just staying absorbed chanting and fasting, and those other you see rules that are to be followed. Then he observed that … totally, Nirjala Ekādaśī known as the Pāṇḍava Nirjala Ekādaśī. So, then he said that, well that’s equal to 100 Ekādaśī. So, in case he missed any during the year he makes up for that.

Let’s say Kardama muni, he didn’t want to spend the whole life, his intention wasn’t to spend the whole life in regulated gṛhastha life. He wanted to just experience… oh phew.. just a few years and then I get back and then whatever was there, I just go back totally into renunciation, just get it over with. It was a little bit of different kind of a situation, but he had that austerity behind him.

Just, like for instance, there is a story about… It’s not exactly the same, but there is a story about Śaṇkarācārya that when he was preaching and defeating Buddhism, so there was this mistress just like a witch, she was like a mystically powerful yoginī in the Buddhist religion, and he was having a debate with her. So she asked him some questions, he had to defeat her in every respect in order to be able to establish his philosophy, that he asked her some...she asked him some questions which only way he could know was if he was a gṛhastha, if had experienced sexual life. But since at the age of nine he had taken sannyāsa there was no way he could know that. So he was, he was in a hard-put situation according to the story to be able to answer that particular question.

So, he went into samādhi, in meditation, he left his body in his spiritual form, and just at that time there was a king somewhere who was dying. So just after he left his body, he entered into the dead body, with his mystic power brought it back to life. Nobody realized. It’s just like a person sick, just at the very moment he died, he went in. So everybody thought that the king recovered. So then he went in and he also enjoyed with the king’s wife, experienced what was that situation and then the King went and died (laughter). All the time, Śankarācārya, since samādhi goes back in, then defeats that woman and he establishes Vedic culture. Of course, Śankarācārya is the incarnation of Lord Śiva, but at that time when he incarnated it seems that they confined themselves to that particular experience as part of their pastime, it’s something beyond our understanding how that happens.

So sometimes these great yogīs and munīs, they do some amazing things, but unless we are able to take people around the universe, and expand ourselves in the nine forms and so on, we shouldn’t just imitate, thinking alright, so now I’ll just for five years we will just have a total honeymoon, and then after that we’ll renounce or something like that. Because we don’t have that type of austerity in this modern world, behind, rather I think everyone has already done the opposite. In many cases, it is not everyone, but in many cases the material world this already they are enjoying totally and then little sometimes people are a little bit frustrated, they come, and others are coming just out of knowledge, some have come out of distress, all different situations are there.

Prabhupāda has given us the opportunity of practicing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that whether we are in the gṛhastha-āśrama or whether we are in the renounced āśrama, if we practice it perfectly, we can go back to godhead, at any time. This system is a little bit risk, risky if in the middle of it one were to leave the body, then one … would have a hard time going back to Godhead because at time their consciousness is absorbed in the mood of sense gratification. Although Kardama muni took that risk, but as I say, he again had that time was different age, and people lived the total lifespan … he had the blessings of Viṣṇu behind him and great austerities, and he also had the benediction that he was going to have Viṣṇu as his son. Well from this first attempt only daughters were born, then next time they were very ... careful to try to produce a son, and they were of course hoping that Viṣṇu would come in that next ... birth.

So that’s a basic kind of overview of the situation. The power of the yogīs to expand themselves and do wonderful things, we can see that although these abilities are there, then ultimately the real thing is to connect with Kṛṣṇa, who has got unlimited forms. Once we are reunited in our relationship as eternal servitor of Kṛṣṇa, that is actually our complete perfection. And whether we have mystic power, at that time of course one gets the mystic power.

Just like ... Nārada muni he also said that, “When he went to see Kṛṣṇa at Dvārakā, he went to each of the palaces of Kṛṣṇa. And in each of the palaces he found Kṛṣṇa was doing something totally different.” So yogi may expand in the nine, ten or eight or whatever of these forms, but they only have one consciousness. It’s not like one form is feeling happiness, and the other is feeling... it may have multiple sensual perception, but the consciousness is one. So like if one is feeling pain, you know that pain would be felt you know by all, because this is one common consciousness. It’s just they are able to somehow expand into ten forms, but they won’t be feeling different emotions. Emotionally they will be in one consciousness.

It’s like we have of course two arms, but most people are like right handed or left handed, and some drummers they become what do you call that ambidextrous where they they... just they can play different beats with each hand, you see which normally it’s like they are both working independently practically. So somehow, they are able to do the similar type of thing where they are ambidextrous in each form, that each form can work simultaneously, and do different things. But emotionally the consciousness is still one person.

When Kṛṣṇa expands each separate form, it’s totally independent of the next, yet simultaneously, the same. It’s something which is totally inconceivable to even a great yogi, a pure devotee, liberated, mystical, perfected person like Nārada muni. When he went around and saw Kṛṣṇa, laughing in one house, and then feeling very compassionate in the next house, and going in each one, displaying a totally different emotion, one place He is dressing up to go out and spy on and see what the citizens are thinking about what is going on, one place He is... all different kinds of pastimes are going on, totally different from the next. Then he ... he became totally amazed at the… at the potency of Kṛṣṇa, that how each of these forms, is not like a yogi’s expanding. He explained that it is totally different.

Kṛṣṇa’s each expansion is full and complete, whereas the yogi’s expansion is not actually independent of the others totally. They are not full and complete separate entities, it’s still one entity with just able to make nine or whatever eight forms. But the expansions of Kṛṣṇa, they are unlimited, and each unlimited form has got the total potentiality, you see.

It’s the difference between having a multiuser computer where we have multi terminals, and having you know unlimited separate, separate … like what you call those, mainframes computers. Each one is got the full potential; it is not dependent on the other. So yogi is kind of like a multi terminal expansion, still one… one main, what you say the CPU, Central Processing Unit, but it has multi forms. But Kṛṣṇa He is totally independent. Each form, each one is simultaneously as good as the next, and able to manifest its own pastimes without any dependence on any other form.

So that’s pretty inconceivable how that could happen. But we can get just some kind of an idea that Kṛṣṇa’s potency is unlimited, and the yogi’s potency is limited, they don’t have the same potency as Kṛṣṇa, but they definitely have more potency than normal conditioned human beings who haven’t entered into … the brahminical culture. So rather than just trying to achieve that intermediate stage of just achieving mystic powers, which you can get automatically by being a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa, just like Nārada muni achieved.

But Nārada Muni although he had those mystic powers, it wasn’t ... that he needed to utilize them very often. We don’t find ... I don’t know if any such instances when Nārada Muni felt the need for ... manifesting, although he mentioned he had them, sometimes he must have tried them out, because he knew the difference between his mystic powers and Kṛṣṇa’s. We don’t find that he needed them, he rather depended upon Kṛṣṇa. In his preaching he would travel around, and he would be preaching and … whatever it was necessary for his particular service he used his power of travelling, apart from that he didn’t use very much … his mystic powers except in rare instances, like when he gave Mṛgāri the vision that ... what would happen to him in the future as the result of his karma and so on.

So someone who is a pure devotee, they are given the mystic powers, because they won’t misuse them, they won’t fall down even though if have them. If for some devotional service sometimes they utilize them. But the yogi sometimes they tend to, when they get mystic powers, to misuse them for sense gratification, and as such sometimes they fall down from their platform. For instance, we find that in the life of Pāṇḍu, when he went into the forest for hunting there was a, a male and female deer are having sexual intercourse and at that time he shot the male, he shot the deer. It turned out that there were two … husband-wife, who through their austerities had achieved mystic powers, had turned themselves into the form of deer so that in public they could wander around in the forest and have sex, which they couldn’t do in the human form because it would, wouldn’t be appropriate at all. They wanted to maintain the Vedic standard, but unfortunately for them, they got killed. Of course, while they were dying, they cursed Pāṇḍu for shooting them in that state.

In this way sometimes we find that they get some mystic power, and they use it for reasons which are not totally ... Kṛṣṇa conscious. In the case of Kardama Muni of course, they said that there was a planned program, just in a short time he wanted to finish of his material desires, and then to totally renounce, and he was assured that he would get liberation in the end. So that kind of an assurance behind him, so he took this particular method.

Some of this other, they get the mystic power, they totally lose sight, of ... going back to Kṛṣṇa and they get absorbed in material activities, and sometimes they don’t recover, or it delays them for a long time. Saubharī muni due to offenses of Vaiṣṇavas, he left his austerities, and he also got married to 49 queens, and he... and ... it took him, we don’t hear after that exactly about his spiritual practices, it took a long time to recover for him, but definitely he was delayed for a long time. His fall-down was due to offending Garuḍa.

Therefore, we are advised not to desire mystic powers. Today in America people seem to have... active exploiting different forms of sense gratification. Some people are already tired of it. So now the movies are showing a trend towards mystic powers. The Force, so many other things, the people want to have mystic powers, these different movies that I hear about seem to be showing some kind of mystical things happening. So that’s a normal trend, first one one’s sense gratification in an ordinary way, then to be able to have mystic powers, you can have sense gratification in a bigger way, then the next stage after that is to want liberation.

So the Buddhist yogīs, they also get mystic powers, therefore they are able to convince people. Normal people if they see some mystic power they become awe-struck and then they, just like the scientist have been able to convince the people by showing some unusual feats, through scientific and technological ... advancements, and more or less they have awestruck the people by their practi... you know, almost mystical power. We think, well that is not mystical, it’s just a manipulation of matter and science. Also, mystical means what, it’s nothing except also the manipulation of matter, it’s just that through vibration, through certain austerities, Prabhupāda said it is a mechanism, if you know the mechanics of it, you can do it.

But to get that type of mental and psychic control to know those subtle mechanics of the material world, it takes austerities, it takes practicing, that type of yoga, or it takes a special mercy of Kṛṣṇa, but it is a mechanical apparatus. It’s just that, in modern science they may discover some of the mechanics of it, the mystic yogis they discover going, coming from a different directions, so they are coming up from the gross material direction, they are coming down from the spiritual into the subtle world, and knowing how to manipulate matter from the causal region, coming down into the world of effect.

Now modern science has found that mind over matter, that some people are able to move little corks in the water and make them go here and there just by their thought process. So like this the yogis their concentration is so intense, and they have the understanding how on the... everything is coming down from the law of karma, from the causal plane into the phenomenal plane. So, they are able to utilize that ... that science, a subtle science into manipulating matter. But that is the same thing, you are manipulating matter. No matter how much you manipulate matter, whether you move pebbles or whether you move mountains, you are not going to be any more spiritually satisfied. It’s simply a type of extended form of sense gratification. Ultimate satisfaction comes when we realize our real constitutional position.

So Caitanya Mahaprabhu, His followers are totally disinterested in mystical powers. In fact, sometimes Lord Caitanya offered mystical powers to His ... devotees, practically as a test, but He offered that they could have. They didn’t desire it.

There is a story of Rasikānanda who was a disciple of Śyāmānanda Paṇḍita, and … at one time in Remuna, where Khīracora Gopīnātha is, he was sitting in the temple there, just the… it’s not, I have not seen it written in a book but this what the local pandits of that local temple explained happened. There is a special shrine to commemorate this pastime.

There some mystic yogi had come into the town and he was flying around on a branch. It seems since he was flying on a branch, he wasn’t actually a mystical yogi in the normal sense of the sāttvika, astha... aṣṭāṇga-yoga process, because if you need to fly around in a branch it would indicate that he was following the more tantric method. By worshiping demigods, they get the empowered branch. This is the original system.

We know of course in Western history that Witches they ride around on broomstick or something. In India they ride around up on a branch from a tree. So it seems that whatever that ancient system was we find that the gypsies in Europe they speak … the language which is ... mainly Sanskrit derivative. They can understand Bengali or Hindi if you speak to them, they say that. So, it seems that a similar type of a tāntrika science was being practiced in the ancient four, five hundred years ago, all over the world, but it originally came from India.

So this yogi was flying around on a, on a branch, we call him a yogi, or this mystic, whatever you call it. And all the villagers were just dumbfounded, because it’s not the kind of thing you see every day. So they were overwhelmed. They ran to Rasikānanda who was their local mahanta, their spiritual master, their spiritual guide, and they said, “You must come and see.” They loved him as a Vaiṣṇava. “You must come and see this yogi is flying around on a, on a branch, this is wonderful.”

He was brushing his teeth that time early in the morning. He said, “This is nothing to worry about, it is not important.”

“No, No, he is flying.”

“I tell you it is nothing important. It is much more important to be Kṛṣṇa conscious.”

“No, No, psh... he is flying, on a branch, there is no strings, nothing.”

So Rasikānanda became very impatient, he took his twig, in India they chew on a twig, put it under his leg, psh.... he flew around the ashram, four, five times, telling that, “I tell you, it is not important, you just be worried about being Kṛṣṇa conscious.” And he came back down, sat, finished brushing his teeth. (laughter) The villagers were amazed, you know, they got the point. (laughter)

So many of our great ācāryas had this power, they didn’t... because ... the people then they won’t be thinking about how to be Kṛṣṇa, they want to fly, right? Then they will be obsessed with that idea, and the... you know, if they die with that idea, then you know they can become a bird or something. Become a mystic yogi to... It will delay their spiritual progress. These mystic powers are simply a spell.

In other ages, when you have got 10,000 or 100,000 years to work with, alright, so mystic powers … it, it’s not that big a problem. But in this particular age, when you can die at any minute, when life is very short anyway, to, to be worried about this type of things which are also very difficult to achieve because they are mechanical things, you have to in the normal way of getting them, there is no guarantee that a person would get these powers.

These teamers, they are doing this type of meditations to levitate and practically speaking because ... in spite of doing it for years together, they are normally able to just get up about a few inches, and they fall down, they have to put rubber cushion, they fall down on their face, so they have to rubber cushion so that they don’t break their neck, because they don’t, they can’t follow all those systems. It is amazing even in this age, they can do that much. That they can even bounce. But even if they could fly, it’s not the goal, you see.

So Kardama muni after, even if he had so many mystic powers, he engaged ultimately in bhakti-yoga. Everyone who really knows the science of yoga, knows that ultimately you have to go into bhakti-yoga and understand your relationship with Bhagavān. This is the ultimate perfection.

So Lord Caitanya, He was so merciful that He didn’t want to distract anyone in spite of offering. Even He offered devotees, they didn’t accept, you see. Somehow if they had it alright, but they didn’t bother to show it to people. You hardly find any example of showing any mystic powers among Lord Caitanya’s followers. Rather they avoided the public fanfare. They avoided that type of public exposure, and they were always preaching the glories of Kṛṣṇa, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, even though they would easily get mystic powers, not that, what was the use of showing it if the people are all attracted just for those mystic powers. No one is going to just to be absorbed, how to do this, how to do that. It will be hard to introduce Kṛṣṇa consciousness to them. So our process is not to try to achieve mystic powers or even liberation, but to achieve pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness. 

When you go back to Godhead, you leave this body. No, some people they may immediately transfer. But we find in the teachings of the Goswamis, Prabhupāda also mentioned that when we go back to Godhead, that if we have any desires we get stuck up on that particular plane. So if you could imagine, you are going back from the earth planet, and when you are going past the heavenly planets, so in one planet there people all have mystic powers, in one planet there are all beautiful gardens and beautiful men and woman, and have ample opportunities for sense gratification, you see.

By their travelling to the heavenly planets, it is told here even Devahūti and Kardama muni, they became sexually agitated. When there is a very nice environment, very comfortable, very beautiful, sometimes that creates more sex desire. So as we are going back to ... the spiritual world, as we, if we happen to go on a visual tour, sometimes the yogis want to see what the universe looks like and so they, they go around and see a few planets on the way back to Godhead. But if we can... there is a danger we will get stuck up.

If we think, “Oh! These mystic powers are far out, these are really nice, I would like to have those.” Alright, then the next thing is you know you are there in Siddhaloka or Kinnara Loka. You think, “Oh, these gardens in the heavenly planets are really nice, I would like to stay here for a while”, you get to take birth in the heavenly planets.

And if you go through all the different planets, but your actual desire is fixed. I simply... “There is no Kṛṣṇa here, where is Kṛṣṇa, Oh! I don’t see Kṛṣṇa here among the yogis, I don’t see Kṛṣṇa here amongst the heavenly planets, I don’t see Kṛṣṇa here in Śiva Loka, I certainly don’t see Kṛṣṇa here in this brahma-jyoti, where is Kṛṣṇa? Oh, here is Vaikuṇṭha Loka, but where is Kṛṣṇa? Where are the cowherd boys? Where is mother Yaśodā? Where is Lord Caitanya and His sankīrtana party? Here is Nārada muni is here, and here he is very formal with Nārāyaṇa, four Kumāras are there, and Jaya... but where is, where is, where is Gopāla, and where is Gaurāṇga?”

You see, if we have that type of desire, if we are already in that type of swarūpa-upalabdhi, where we identify directly in our relationship as a servant of Kṛṣṇa, in His Gopāla form, Rādhā-Mādhava form,or with … Lord Caitanya, then that takes us back to Goloka Vṛndāvana. Anyway along the way, where we are attracted in the material world, to the karma-kāṇḍa, jñāna-kāṇḍa, or the majestic aspect in the spiritual world, or to just merging in the brahma-jyoti, and the lower level than that, whatever it may be, we get stuck up there. For a pure devotee, they sometimes are able after death, after time they are able to continue. This is the thing.

So right now, we have the opportunity, through Śrīla Prabhupāda’s books, this movement of Lord Caitanya, of reawakening our original consciousness as the servant of the original form of Kṛṣṇa. And that can take us right back to Kṛṣṇa, right back to Godhead. But even if get stuck up, as long as we are... practiced devotional service, of course Prabhupāda assures it in the end, one again can get the opportunity to continue. Even you take birth in the heavenly planets, again when you take birth in the earthly planet, you are able to take up your devotional service, by being born in a good family suitable for taking up devotional service. But there are definitely risks involved.

In fact, I have heard … that one-time Prabhupāda said that, he was expressing anxiety that his devotees weren’t concentrating enough upon being Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If somebody, we don’t have the mystic power like Kardama muni to experience everything in one life, so if somebody still has his unfulfilled desire to enjoy sense gratification, they may have to take birth in the heavenly planets. But then by that time or by the time we come back down to this earthly planet, Lord Caitanya movement wouldn’t be here. His movement is here for 10,000 years. What’s 10,000 years in heavenly planets? That’s few days, nothing. It is a very great risk, you see. Now we have this opportunity.

It’s just like when they advertise, “Sale on between ... January … 26 to 28” If you go now while the sale is on, now you have stand every opportunity. Now is the chance, now if we just absorb ourselves in Lord Caitanya’s saṅkīrtana movement you see, we relegate, we... we just fall at the feet of Nitai-Gaura and beg for Their mercy and somehow if They give us a drop of that spiritual ecstasy of pure love for Kṛṣṇa, then immediately without going through all these trials and tribulations, we can see that, “Well, this whole material world’s happiness is just very insignificant compared to the joy, to the transcendental bliss of serving Kṛṣṇa”, and that is the best protection.

You see, there is different ways of approaching it. One way is kind of through the school of hard knocks. And the other way is, “Alright, if You just Lord Nityananda give me a little drop of Nectar, if You just flood me with so much happiness, that I can’t think any more about anything else, that I just, the material happiness no longer has any attraction for me because of You giving me the pure happiness of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.” You see, that is the best immunization.

You want to get the vaccination from the material attraction. The best way is to get absorbed in transcendental ecstasy. And to do that we have to have a very strong desire. In a, in a, few days or weeks or months or years, if we are very determined, and if we get that somehow or another if we can just convince Lord Nityananda that we don’t want anything else but that, You should please give us that little drop of mercy. Well if somehow or another, because He is unlimitedly merciful, He doesn’t consider that this person is qualified or unqualified, He is very liberal in giving that mercy. And if someone just has the desire for it, Lord Nityananda, He is been known to give. So it is very promising if we put our, put our faith in Lord Nityananda, if we put our aspirations on His lotus feet to give that mercy, and if we get that, then after that it is smooth sailing. Then material happiness does seem very insignificant. And all we have to do is to just avoid too much association with the materialistic things, which will somehow just bring us into some clouded condition where we forget our spiritual perspective and start acting just mechanically again on the material platform. We just have to avoid that type of situation, and continually engage in devotional service.

So with that little drop of nectar, that’s what every devotee prays for. ‘Kṛpā bindu dīyā’, give me that drop of mercy, that drop of mercy which is the mercy of Lord Nityananda. Guru is of course the representative of Lord Nityananda. He can also request Lord Nityananda to give that mercy. So when we get that, then we don’t have to go through so many material experiences, and become renounced and detached, and then when... engaged in devotional service, and austerities, and that kind of more tedious way. Directly we can be very fixed up on the spiritual platform by achieving that ecstasy of devotional service.

We get little, a little taste of it, in our kīrtanas, sometimes in devotional service, we get a little glimpse of that transcendental happiness in that, and that is enough, of course to give us even more enthusiasm. If we totally desire that mercy from Lord Nityananda, why wouldn’t He give? He is so merciful, He gave Jagāi, Madhāi, and they didn’t even have a desire for it. If we have the desire for it then why He wouldn’t give us the mercy?

So we should fix our mind, not for any material reason we want this spiritual happiness, but just so that our mind is totally fixed. Because you know that like little children, always looking where is the sweet, where is something to eat, are little restless, like this our mind is immature, a little restless, it gets disturbed sometimes by material allurements, how is it going to be possible to satisfy the mind and the senses, you know it is not possible by material means, and we don’t... we lack sometimes the determination to do it spiritually.

So the only hope for us is to get the mercy of Lord Caitanya, Lord Nityananda, the Panca Tattva. Because by Their mercy then immediately we can be absorbed in transcendental bliss, and that’s our best immunization. The only thing that can potentially drag us down from that transcendental platform, is if we commit offenses to the Vaiṣṇavas wherefore careless and inadvertently we allow weeds to grow up.

So this is the system Lord Caitanya has given. It’s definitely the most short cut. You simply be absorbed in transcendental ecstasy, this way you don’t have to go through this type of ... material sense gratificatory distractions. One can very simply practice their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then go back to Godhead. That’s the unlimited mercy of Bhaktivedānta Swami Prabhupāda, to bring us the mercy of Lord Nityananda here in the Western world, where people are far removed from spiritual life.

So he gave the process, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, dance in ecstasy, feast, and by... people they didn’t know the philosophy, they didn’t know anything, they weren’t even following any principles where by chanting and feasting, and Kṛṣṇa prasādam and dancing, while chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa they started to feel transcendental happiness. And having felt transcendental happiness even a little bit, even for a few moments, then their mind became fixed. “Oh, this is something really wonderful.” And then they started reading the books and become....

So our process is somehow or another to get people to chant, get them to dance, get them to take Kṛṣṇa prasādam. Those who are you see, the general people they are not very philosophically inclined nowadays. Those who are of course, let them come and we will, can deal with them philosophically. But in generally our process is to just somehow or other engage people in devotional service. By that they become purified, and they taste some spiritual peace of mind, happiness, ecstasy in some cases.

And then once they feel a very strong connection with Kṛṣṇa, through that type of, those different types of practices, then we teach them how to avoid weeds and offenses, how to maintain their devotional service through the process of regulative principles or sādhanā. And once they achieve, then a very fixed ... state of experiencing transcendental bliss, then their responsibility is to carry out the order of the spiritual master. Of course, externally, they will always engage in chanting and hearing and devotional practices to show a good example to others, but their primary duty at that time then is fulfilling the order of the spiritual master over all other duties.

śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya
prabhu-nityānanda
śrī-advaita gadādhara
śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda

hare kṛṣṇa hare kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa kṛṣṇa hare hare
hare rāma hare rāma rāma rāma hare hare

Any questions?

Question: Who are the demigods?

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, they are all devotees, you see.

Devotee: What’s that?

Jayapatākā Swami: They are called, sakāma bhaktas, that means they are devotees, but they have material desires. Niṣkāma and sakāma, those who have desires, they go to heavenly planets. Anyone in the heavenly planets is a devotee. Deva means, you are devotee of Viṣṇu. If you have material desires, you are not a devotee, then you go to those places in the lower planets, where there are also sense gratification, but they are not devotees.

Question: Why they can’t go back to Godhead? Why do they have to come back here and then go back from here?

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, the... it’s been described in different ways. One is that when you are in the heavenly planets, the... the comforts and the sense gratification is so all pervasive that one doesn’t really feel the urgency, one doesn’t feel that type of intense need for engaging in self-realization. It’s just like, you find that it is, it is more difficult to preach to the Americans than people in the 3rd world, possible because they have enough money, make them more proud, self-relying. But when they are poor, even when you do saṅkīrtana, I have heard it many times that it is actually the poor people, are easier to approach. Even if they don’t have money, they are easier to approach, they are not the... the… By sense gratification, the person becomes a little bit proud, becomes a little bit aloof.

So you can imagine that now, in the heavenly planets, you have a situation where there is practically no suffering. That... the, practically the only… in Janaloka like the suffering, they experience is that they see in other planets, people are suffering and that they feel bad about it. And you go up higher up than that, then they are even further removed from the suffering.

So in that environment, to become Kṛṣṇa conscious requires a long time of meditation, different things. There are those who do that. But normally to go back from the heavenly planets, and they will start planet hopping, they will start to, by their austerities go up to Brahma loka, Satya loka, and then they will stay with Lord Brahmā.

Now when Lord Brahma dies, and he lives a long time, when he goes back, then those people with him on his planet, they get to go back. So at that time many of the siddhas and others, who have mystic power, they try at the last part of the universe to get up to Satya-loka. Those who make it, then home base... they get to go back to Godhead, but those who don’t make it they have to wait till the next creation of the material universe.

So that… that way is, is a very... is something very far in the future. We know that even if Lord Brahmā goes to sleep at night, that...that ... the residents of the Satya-loka, like well, Nārada muni explained that he was in the Vis... in the body of ... Viṣṇu, but ... he was conscious for those millions of years just went very quickly for him, then again they came out, he didn’t lose his consciousness.

From this earthly planet, the facility of going back to Godhead ... at the end of life, this is just ... this is like the special loophole, that as a human being it’s not so much sense gratification, there is not that... there is a not a little suffering, you can see suffering, if you not even experiencing it so much, you can see it, it is there in the world,right before your eyes, and most people experience some suffering, especially now in Kali-yuga. Similar but there is not so much suffering, that even amongst the suffering there is some happiness, like it is said in the heavenly...

In the hellish planets it is so hellish, that it is just so horrible that you can’t think about senses, you just want to get out of that place, and you can’t concentrate upon sādhanā or some kind of you know spiritual practices so much, it’s very difficult. It is just too hellish, the pain is just too great, so this is ...the... described as the ideal place for going back to Godhead.

But Kṛṣṇa says that, anybody remembers Kṛṣṇa at the time of death they will come to Him, no matter where they are. But we are advised that in the heavenly planets, apparently, they don’t always think about Kṛṣṇa, because of the sense gratification they get distracted. Where if we are Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this planet, well it’s a good opportunity that we remember Kṛṣṇa and go back.

If you remember Kṛṣṇa at the time of death, you go to Him. If you are thinking of something else, you go there. That is universal. Kṛṣṇa wasn’t speaking for one country, or one person, or one place. He is speaking as universal. So then the demigods, they live for long time. So at the end of their lives, if they think of Kṛṣṇa, they can go back, and just apparently there is dangers and you have to live a long time. It’s a long time, in a very comfortable situation. So it is advised that, in fact the demigods they prefer taking birth here to practice devotional service. Especially they are crying to be here when Lord Caitanya’s movement, because in such a short time, you can go back to Godhead. I don’t know if I answered it.

Question: You explained that how a yogi can expand himself nine times but what about a pure Vaiṣṇava? Kardama muni... [Inaudible] Is that a pure devotee can expand more than 9 times? Say if pure devotee is being worshipped, his mercy is something else that we understand that he is greater than that mercy. Say 100 or 1000 mercies is that the pure devotee has expanded himself? In each temple, in 1000 temples each Deity is independent personality. But…

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, he is expanding his material body these many times. The spiritual, the spiritual form is not limited. Spiritual form is beyond time and space. It’s on the transcendental platform. So, there is not that separation.

Question: Can a pure devotee, can a pure devotee have more than one statue? Statue say is that a yogi?

Jayapatākā Swami: You are talking about the physical, material body, it’s not a physical... you know

Devotee: Physical, tangible, you know just like … [Inaudible]

Jayapatākā Swami: Spiritually physical?? (laughter)

Devotee: … [inaudible] Prabhupāda also…

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, it’s an arcāvatāra. You are calling Prabhupāda from the spiritual platform to be present within that form. So that’s, that can be done unlimited number of times. You see, there is... there is two different ways to approach it.

One is someone who is in the spiritual world and has a form like Viṣṇu’s, That means that he already has his svarūpa-siddhi, where he is in his two armed, or four armed form. So you can’t limit that form. It’s not, it’s ... that ... that entity can be simultaneously present. You can communicate with that person, he is on the transcendental platform, it’s beyond the material limitations. That’s one angle of vision.

The other angle of vision is, even if someone is in the material world, he is a pure devotee, but was still not ... manifesting any type of transcendental opulences like that. But through the Supersoul, through the Supersoul, Sri Kṛṣṇa is present everywhere, so through the Supersoul that devotee can understand. Just like this electrical, just like this telephonic connection. You have a line here and one in Los Angeles. So Supersoul is in every atom, he is in every heart, he is in the heart of the pure devotee. So if one has direct connection with Kṛṣṇa, then he would also have, he would know everything through Kṛṣṇa. It’s just the difference, knowing it from Kṛṣṇa, or knowing it directly, there is no basic difference, it’s almost the same thing.

When we offer our prasāda to the spiritual master, even... even when people offer the prasāda to their ancestors, the ancestors are not pure devotees, in fact the offering they might be in hell, but through the process of mantra and through our meditation, they get the benefit of having that prasāda offered to them,through the Supersoul. Now the pure devotees in a totally different situation.

But in any case, in whichever way it’s going through the devotee, to Kṛṣṇa, worship is accepted by Kṛṣṇa. There is no limitation of the material time or space. It’s not that you can only have 10 murtis of Prabhupāda, after that there is no more expansions allowed. But this is an, there is an arcana-avatāra.

In specifically it is being talked here is when the body expands into 10 different forms, and each form is, you know, just like in sometimes I forget, there was one yogi who was fighting a battle and he divided himself into 10 forms, and each one had a sword and they were fighting like that. I think some demon did that also with Kṛṣṇa. So that can be done by these yogis, they can expand themselves into different forms and they can all be...they are all doing one thing, they are all fighting, or whatever they happen to be doing. In this case they are all acting in a family activities, and sexual activities. They are all doing one basic activity. This is on the material platform, these are material bodies.

Spiritual bodies don’t do these type of things. It’s not that body, it is the spiritual rūpa. You say deha, deha means body. Śūkṣma-śarīra and sthūla-śarīra. Gross and subtle bodies. Body is a covering. When you... You don’t find...you see, here is a siddha-svarūpa, siddha-rupa, the spiritual form, for when we are referring to the form of the soul, it’s not a body, it’s the form of the soul. Just Like you are the form of your hand, and the covering of your glove. So there is a difference. When you are discussing with the coverings, with these bodies, the yogis are able to expand even his physical body upto 8 or 9 times, through mystic power. That’s called mind over matter, in a far different level than what they are investigating in our modern science.

But the spiritual, on the spiritual platform, there is no limitation. If Kṛṣṇa wants He can empower a soul to do anything, that is called śaktyāveśa and simultaneously one can be conscious of what’s going on throughout the entire material universe. Vyasadeva saw simultaneously the material world, spiritual world everything. He is an individual soul, empowered. So simultaneously, on the spiritual platform you can see, you are not limited, your every sense is interchangeable just like Kṛṣṇa’s. There are ultimately some limitations, but an individual soul relative to Kṛṣṇa even on the spiritual platform, but that is in specific, specific areas. This one proves in either case, but it wouldn’t prove the limitation. Either you consider that directly the spiritual master is present in his deity, or that is being transmitted through the agency of the Supersoul, in either case, there is no difficulty.

Devotee: When the yogi expands in different forms, does he still have the one same soul?

Jayapatākā Swami: Right. Souls are not subdividing, the ātmā is one.

Devotee: In the case of pure devotee who say has the body of Viṣṇu, is non-different. In that way, does that means they become all pervasive as well?

Jayapatākā Swami: His body is like Viṣṇu…

Devotee: so does that mean that he is all pervasive like the picture, or is he conscious of the picture or... [Inaudible]

Jayapatākā Swami: That means that his...his picture on the transcendental platform, anything to do with the ... the liberated soul is connected with you, even in... even in... even in material world it’s known that physically that... It’s like when you, as you come up to the focal point, as you come up to the absolute platform, everything does become one in the absolute, but even within that oneness there is also variegatedness.

Even we find in the ancient cultures like in South America, and the Caribbean , and what is that, they take a doll of someone, materially and they do voodoo or something.... Because there is a relation between ... form, or thought, or an object of the person and a person, even in the material platform. What to speak about the spiritual platform as direct, a picture of guru, picture of Kṛṣṇa, is is is... connected.

Devotee: The spirit soul...one thousand’s part of the tip of the hair… is different …[inaudible]

Jayapatākā Swami: And that’s the size of the dormant soul. When you get your siddha-swarūpa, then you have your spiritual form, which is well related to whatever situation you are in, at that time it is not…

Devotee: it never becomes

Jayapatākā Swami: Not in that sense. Well, it is all pervasive. Wherever Kṛṣṇa is, the devotee is there. Simultaneously the soul can appear in more than one place, under certain circumstances, and be performing different pastimes. [Pause]

Devotee: Is it same way, the spiritual master is there in the altar? … He is looking at us?

Jayapatākā Swami: Why not?

That’s why if we fortify our intelligence with the words of the spiritual master, and the instructions from the śāstras, and the teachings from the Vaiṣṇavas. That gives us transcendental intelligence. Just like someone might be a PhD, or a doctor, or some big lawyer, and he may be very intellectual and very intelligent on that level. And there may be someone who is just like that, the... that story, you must have heard about the ... the boatman and the scholar. You heard that? New bhaktas? You don’t tell him these stories? One might be very ... simple in terms of material sophistication, he may be very practically intelligent. So if we have the advice from the spiritual master, they can tell you the story sometimes, of the boatman and the scholar. Some video I think you get the drama.

The ... that very practical intelligence, you can distinguish what is a weed. Just like a gardener, he is also intelligent, but he may not be very sophisticated in cases, but he is very practically intelligent. So that type of intelligence, a devotee has, very practical, that may not be the most sophisticated. May also be that they are also not very sophisticated, or really intelligent devotee, in that sense, but, but in general they have a very pragmatic understanding of life, very pragmatic understanding of what is the weed in spiritual life. By having received so many instructions from the spiritual sources, you should fortify yourselves by reading the scriptures, by listening to the classes, by listening to your spiritual master. In this way you get more and more intelligence how to avoid the different pitfalls in spiritual life. Yes.

Jayapatākā Swami: It’s number one.

Jayapatākā Swami: Can, can be. It depends on the gravity of your offence, the elevation of the person who you are offending, in any...for any Vaiṣṇava, it can cause fall down. It’s compared with vaiṣṇava-aparādha uṭhe matal hātī upāḍe vā chiṇḍe, tāra śukhi’ yāya pātā [Cc Madhya 19.156] It’s like an elephant pulling out banana tree right from the root, ripping it out and throwing it down, or any tree. So that means for some time the leaves may stay green, but after some short time they will become dry and fall out, because it is pulled out from the root. And if you cut, it might grow up again. You cut a tree sometimes it grows up. If you pull it out from the root and just throw it down, then... this is called the mad elephant offense. So we have to guard from that very carefully. You should never stop seeing the good qualities in Vaiṣṇavas. Some quality make become visible, which is not so good, sometimes. But if a person is a Vaiṣṇava, we should never lose our sight of the good qualities that person possesses. Bad qualities can be purified. So when a person only starts seeing the bad qualities, not able to see the good qualities, becomes offensive, then it’s very dangerous.

You see, sometimes people consider, like if you say that, this person shouldn’t be listened to, or this person is inimical to Prabhupāda, but this persons… that’s all… that is needed, that’s not an offense, you see. Sometimes ... people try to get sympathy saying just see, because they say, “don’t go to those people”, they don’t listen, or they say that they are inimical to Prabhupāda, or they have...

In some cases, in the... in the Caitanya Caritāmṛta, it says anyone who cannot appreciate, the good devotional service of another, is envious of that, he is not a Vaiṣṇava. So it doesn’t mean that everyone of Prabhupāda’s godbrother is necessarily a Vaiṣṇava. It doesn’t mean that every one of our godbrothers is necessarily a Vaiṣṇava, they might not come up to the platform of being a Vaiṣṇava. They may have fallen down from the platform of being a Vaiṣṇava by their offenses.

Normally no one is going to take a risk of criticizing the spiritual master’s brothers. We don’t take such a big risk, socially and Vedically, we just don’t do it. It’s not… it’s dangerous. May be somebody has that type of insight, they think that, “Well, this person doesn’t show the qualities of Vaiṣṇava”, so they may say something like that. Other people may just maintain the social structure, they don’t say that. Someone may say that later on, just for the sake of preaching, because someone although technically they may not actually be a demon, but they may be acting practically like a demon, because they are acting inimical to preaching ... to you know preaching of Kṛṣṇa consciousness or preaching movement, which is definitely not the activity that a Vaiṣṇava should or would do.

But later on, that person may somehow, or another readjust his vocabulary in terms of describing that particular person, or may... he may have...have said something like that just to be a little graphic in terms of defending the spiritual lives of others. May be it was over enthusiastic in some cases, maybe in other cases it was realistic. But just to get the kind of you know, attention or sympathy that people who will try to expose, they would just say, “How can someone offend a Vaiṣṇava?” This all ploys in somehow or another getting people to listen to the other person and ultimately to come in to that particular camp, you know.

This is not, just like for instance in the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement, we don’t discuss Prabhupāda’s godbrothers, he brought it up so we are discussing. You see. We don’t... we have plenty of things, we are trying to preach, we are trying to expand Prabhupāda’s … mission, the mission that he started, the mission of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We don’t have time to just sit around and discuss the bad or good relative qualities of different other people, who are not really doing so much in the spiritual activities of spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness in this world.

But other people their... their preaching is based upon somehow identifying with Prabhupāda and bringing him into that and trying to gain some credibility from having some relation with Prabhupāda. And then the other way that they have is then by trying to discredit people if they don’t accept whoever they are trying to promote. But the basic thing was that Prabhupāda was very clear, he wanted that all the followers of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur should work together. This is basic standard - we should all work together. If you don’t want to work together, if you don’t want to cooperate together, alright then we are separate.

We are going to establish a cooperative movement as the International Society for Kṛṣṇa Conscious. You want to cooperate with that, work together, we have branches all over the world, we got the mercy of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, step forward, come on. If you don’t want to cooperate, you want to set up your own independent camp, you don’t want to follow Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur’s order to work together, we don’t have anything to do with you. You know apart from socially being polite if you are not inimical with. This is the basic thing. There is no reason that anyone should not cooperate with Srila Prabhupāda. This movement is … offering the best opportunity in the whole world to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. [Pause] Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Devotee: [Inaudible]

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, if you have had the mercy of Lord Nityānanda, that mercy is that you are feeling spiritual ecstasy, that immunizes you from material attractions. So doesn’t matter whatever Vaiṣṇava, in fact in the 11th canto or the 12th, 11th canto, Bhāgavatam, it’s mentioned that even uttama-adhikāri, if he offends a kaniṣṭha-adhikāri, say that for some reason a very exalted devotee became envious of a neophyte devotee’s sincerity or something like that, just as a... I mean it is practically impossible to happen, but in case it would just to happen. Even in that case that a more advanced devotee, just like Lord Rama told Hanumān that don’t be proud and ... and not give that little spider who was throwing little pieces of dust, and Hanumān was throwing big boulders. So Hanumān said like, “Get out of the way”, and Rama is saying, “No, he is working with his full enthusiasm and energy, he is no less than you are.”

So somehow if a more advanced devotee might consider himself far more exalted than some say neophyte devotee and somehow obstruct the devotional service of the neophyte just out of false ego, that... even for that offense you can fall down. What to speak of, if you are offending someone more, you see... any... any Vaiṣṇava. So it’s certainly in the social... the Vedas say that one should see one, even one’s own godbrother who is more elder, who is more senior, more Kṛṣṇa conscious, you should see him almost equal with the spiritual master.

In the Vedic......that’s your own godbrother, and ... so the godbrother of your spiritual master should... should normally be ... respected...spiritual uncle. There is a difference in relationship, again Prabhupāda clarified in the Ādi-līlā, part 3, that if somebody is inimical of the devotional service of his godbrother, that is not a Vaiṣṇava quality.

Vaiṣṇavas are not envious people. Materialists are envious people. If a person is materialist when you offend them, there is no offense. Or if a person is a Vaiṣṇava, but he has a materialistic attitude and you want people to avoid that materialistic attitude, that’s also not an offense. But one should definitely from the Vedic, social point of view, one should avoid offending the older Vaiṣṇavas, or the godbrother of the spiritual master, as one also would avoid offending the spiritual master. [Pause]

And if you do offend anyone, then if you, you lose the mercy of Nityananda, then naturally you are more open for falling prey to sense gratification. This is something that is very difficult for someone else to judge, except for the spiritual master.