20200605 Confidential Conversations Between Lord Gaurāṅga and Chand Kazi

Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Book Compilation by His Holiness Jayapatākā Swami Mahārāja on 5^th June 2020 in Śrīdhāma Māyāpur, India

mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ paṅguṁ laṅghayate girim
yat-kṛpā tam ahaṁ vande śrī-guruṁ dīna-tāraṇam
paramānandaṁ mādhavaṁ śrī caitanya iśvaram
hariḥ oṁ tat sat

Introduction: Jaya Jagannātha, Baladeva, Subhadrā! Here we see the Jagannātha, Baladeva, Subhadrā Deities wearing the elephant outfit, and it is called hāthi-veśa, after the class, you can go to the website, Mayapur.tv, Facebook page and see. Today is also the disappearance day of Śrīvāsa Ṭhākura, We, have the birthplace of Śrīvāsa Ṭhākura in Bangladesh, and today also is the disappearance day of Mukunda Datta Prabhu. We have both his appearance place and his śrīpāṭ in Puṇḍarīka dhāma, so, today is a very special day, we are also discussing Lord Caitanya’s conversation with the Chand Kazi, today’s chapter is,

Confidential Conversations Between Lord Gaurāṅga and Chand Kazi

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.143

tabe mahāprabhu tāra dvārete vasilā
bhavya-loka pāṭhāiyā kājīre bolāilā

Translation: Thereafter, when Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu reached the Kazi’s house, He sat down by the doorway and sent some respectable persons to call for the Kazi.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.144

kājīke laukikī maryādā-dāna

dūra ha-ite āilā kājī māthā noyāiyā
kājīre vasāilā prabhu sammāna kariyā

Translation: When the Kazi came, his head bowed down, the Lord gave him proper respect and a seat.

Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: Some of the men in Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s civil disobedience movement were agitated because they could not control their minds. But the Lord was thoroughly peaceful, sober and unagitated. Therefore, when the Kazi came down to see Him, the Lord offered him proper respect and a seat because he was a respectable government officer. Thus, the Lord taught us by His personal behavior. In pushing on our saṅkīrtana movement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we might have to face difficult days, but we should always follow in the footsteps of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and do the needful according to the time and circumstances.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.145

kājīra ācaraṇe prabhura vismayasūcaka ukti–

prabhu balena,—āmi tomāra āilāma abhyāgata
āmi dekhi’ lukāilā,—e-dharma kemata

Translation: In a friendly way, the Lord said, “Sir, I have come to your house as your guest, but upon seeing Me you hid yourself in your room. What kind of etiquette is this?”

Jayapatākā Swami: Lord Caitanya, He is lightening the mood and He is bringing the discussion in light topics, so that the Kazi will feel at ease to discuss.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.146

kājīra pratyuttara:—

kājī kahe—tumi āisa kruddha ha-iyā
tomā śānta karāite rahinu lukāiyā

Translation: The Kazi replied, “You have come to my house in a very angry mood. To pacify You, I did not come before You immediately but kept myself hidden.”

Jayapatākā Swami: At first Lord Caitanya was angry because the Chand Kazi had put up obstacles to His saṅkīrtana movement. But then the devotees reminded the Lord and requested Him to be peaceful. So, then He became peaceful, and now He is completely controlled and sober.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.147

ebe tumi śānta haile, āsi, mililāṅ
bhāgya mora,—tomā hena atithi pāilāṅ

Translation: Now that You have become pacified, I have come to You. It is my good fortune to receive a guest like Your Honor.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.148

grāma-sambandhe ’cakravartī’ haya mora cācā
deha-sambandhe haite haya grāma-sambandha sāṅcā

Translation: In our village relationship, Nīlāmbara Cakravartī Ṭhākura was my uncle. Such a relationship is stronger than a bodily relationship.

Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: In India, even in the interior villages, all the Hindu and Muslim communities used to live very peacefully by establishing a relationship between them. The young men called the elderly members of the village by the name cācā or kākā, “uncle,” and men of the same age called each other dādā, “brother.” The relationship was very friendly. There were even invitations from Muslim houses to Hindu houses and from Hindu houses to Muslim houses. Both the Hindus and the Muslims accepted the invitations to go to one another’s houses to attend ceremonial functions. Even until fifty or sixty years ago, the relationship between Hindus and Muslims was very friendly, and there were no disturbances. We do not find any Hindu-Muslim riots in the history of India, even during the days of the Muslims’ rule over the country. Conflict between Hindus and Muslims was created by polluted politicians, especially foreign rulers, and thus the situation gradually became so degraded that India was divided into Hindustan and Pakistan. Fortunately, the remedy to unite not only the Hindus and Muslims but all communities and all nations can still be implemented by the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement on the strong basic platform of love of Godhead.

Jayapatākā Swami: In the present Pandemic situation, some governments are asking all the religions to say what is the cause of this affliction, according to the śāstra, and what is the solution? Śrīla Prabhupāda says here, that the solution can be implemented by the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, on the basic platform of love of Godhead.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.149

nīlāmbara cakravartī haya tomāra nānā
se-sambandhe hao tumi āmāra bhāginā

Translation: Nīlāmbara Cakravartī is Your maternal grandfather, and by this relationship You are thus my nephew.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.150

bhāgināra krodha māmā avaśya sahaya
mātulera aparādha bhāginā nā laya

Translation: When a nephew is very angry, his maternal uncle is tolerant, and when the maternal uncle commits an offense, the nephew does not take it very seriously.”

Jayapatākā Swami: So, we can see how the discussion became very friendly, and how the Chand Kazi and Lord Caitanya began to discuss in a very intimate manner.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.151

ei mata duṅhāra kathā haya ṭhāre-ṭhore
bhitarera artha keha bujhite nā pāre

Translation: In this way the Kazi and the Lord talked with each other with various indications, but no outsider could understand the inner meaning of their conversation.

Jayapatākā Swami: The Chand Kazi was presenting him as the uncle of Lord Caitanya. He said that if the nephew gets very angry, the uncle is very tolerant, and if the uncle makes a mistake, the nephew doesn’t take it very seriously. So, by this discussion, the Chand Kazi was indicating that he wouldn’t take any offence by the anger of Lord Caitanya, and similarly, he said that Lord Caitanya should also not take it seriously that he had made some offence. In this way, things were coming closer to a resolution.

Thus ends one chapter, Confidential Conversations Between Lord Gaurāṅga and Chand Kazi.

I will read another chapter.

Lord Gaurāṅga Convinces Kazi that Killing Cows is Forbidden

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.152

prabhura o kājīra ukti o pratyukti –

prabhu kahe,—praśna lāgi’ āilāma tomāra sthāne
kājī kahe,—ājṣā kara, ye tomāra mane

Translation:The Lord said, “My dear uncle, I have come to your home just to ask you some questions.”

“Yes,” the Kazi replied, “You are welcome. Just tell me what is in Your mind.”

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.153

islāma dharnmācāra sambandhe prabhura praśna:—

prabhu kahe,—go-dugdha khāo, gābhī tomāra mātā
vṛṣa anna upajāya, tāte teṅho pitā

Translation: The Lord said, “You drink cows’ milk; therefore, the cow is your mother. And the bull produces grains for your maintenance; therefore, he is your father.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.154

pitā-mātā māri’ khāo—ebā kon dharma
kon bale kara tumi e-mata vikarma

Translation: “Since the bull and cow are your father and mother, how can you kill and eat them? What kind of religious principle is this? On what strength are you so daring that you commit such sinful activities?”

Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: Everyone can understand that we drink the milk of cows and take the help of bulls in producing agricultural products. Therefore, since our real father gives us food grains and our mother gives us milk with which to live, the cow and bull are considered our father and mother. According to Vedic civilization, there are seven mothers, of which the cow is one. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu challenged the Muslim Kazi, “What kind of religious principle do you follow by killing your father and mother to eat them?” In any civilized human society, no one would dare kill his father and mother for the purpose of eating them. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu challenged the system of Muslim religion as patricide and matricide. In the Christian religion also, a principal commandment is “Thou shalt not kill.” Nevertheless, Christians violate this rule; they are very expert in killing and in opening slaughterhouses. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, our first provision is that no one should be allowed to eat any kind of flesh. It does not matter whether it is cows’ flesh or goats’ flesh, but we especially stress the prohibition against cows’ flesh because according to śāstra the cow is our mother. Thus the Muslims’ cow-killing was challenged by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu.

Jayapatākā Swami: The present pandemic of the corona virus which at this point, has affected over 6 million people and 350,000 have died. By the time this book gets published I don’t know what the totals will be? But this virus comes from the animals, and most viruses which causes pandemics come from the animals. Because we mistreat the animals, we kill animals, eat their flesh, therefore the disease of the animals has come to the human beings, and we don’t have the natural antibodies to protect ourselves. So, this has effectively shut down the world. But if we would prohibit the eating of flesh, then we could solve this problem of worldwide pandemic.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.155

kājīra uttara

kājī kahe,—tomāra yaiche veda-purāṇa
taiche āmāra śāstra—ketāva ’korāṇa’

Translation: The Kazi replied, “As You have Your scriptures called the Vedas and Purāṇas, we have our scripture, known as the holy Koran.

Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: Chand Kazi agreed to talk with Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu on the strength of the scriptures. According to the Vedic scripture, if one can support his position by quoting from the Vedas, his argument is perfect. Similarly, when the Muslims support their position with quotations from the Koran, their arguments are also authorized. When Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu raised the question of the Muslims’ cow-killing and bull-killing, Chand Kazi came to the standard of understanding from his scriptures.

Jayapatākā Swami: In other words, now they are having a discussion based on their own individual scriptures, and in this way coming to some conclusion.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.156

sei śāstre kahe, —pravṛtti-nivṛtti-mārga-bheda
nivṛtti-mārge jīva-mātra-vadhera niṣedha

Translation: “According to the Koran, there are two ways of advancement—through increasing the propensity to enjoy, and through decreasing the propensity to enjoy. On the path of decreasing attachment [nivṛtti-mārga], the killing of animals is prohibited.

Jayapatākā Swami: This is an interesting point! Most followers of Islam apparently do not know about this, nivṛtti-mārga. In general, they don’t accept being a vegetarian. But here according to the Chand Kazi, one of the paths of Islam prohibits killing of any animals.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.157

pravṛtti-mārge go-vadha karite vidhi haya
śāstra-ājñāya vadha kaile nāhi pāpa-bhaya

Translation: On the path of material activities, there is regulation for killing cows. If such killing is done under the guidance of scripture, there is no sin.”

Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: The word śāstra is derived from the dhātu, or verbal root, śas. Śas-dhātu pertains to controlling or ruling. A government’s ruling through force or weapons is called śastra. Thus whenever there is ruling, either by weapons or by injunctions, the śas-dhātu is the basic principle. Between śastra (ruling through weapons) and śāstra (ruling through the injunctions of the scriptures), the better is śāstra. Our Vedic scriptures are not ordinary lawbooks of human common sense; they are the statements of factually liberated persons unaffected by the imperfectness of the senses.

Śāstra must be correct always, not sometimes correct and sometimes incorrect. In the Vedic scriptures, the cow is described as a mother. Therefore she is a mother for all time; it is not, as some rascals say, that in the Vedic age she was a mother but she is not in this age. If śāstra is an authority, the cow is a mother always; she was a mother in the Vedic age, and she is a mother in this age also.

If one acts according to the injunctions of śāstra, he is freed from the reactions of sinful activity. For example, the propensities for eating flesh, drinking wine and enjoying sex are all natural to the conditioned soul. The path of such enjoyment is called pravṛtti-mārga. The śāstra says, pravṛttir eṣā bhūtānāṁ nivṛttis tu mahā-phalā: one should not be carried away by the propensities of defective conditioned life; one should be guided by the principles of the śāstras. A child’s propensity is to play all day long, but it is the injunction of the śāstras that the parents should take care to educate him. The śāstras are there just to guide the activities of human society. But because people do not refer to the instructions of śāstras, which are free from defects and imperfections, they are therefore misguided by so-called educated teachers and leaders who are full of the deficiencies of conditioned life.

Jayapatākā Swami: The governments, legislatures, and executives’ rule by enforcement, but that is subject to time, place, circumstance and maybe changed, that is the śastra. But the śāstra or the scripture, is not subject to change. So, in the śāstra or the scripture, it gives certain prescripts or injunctions. One follows these, they will not be subject to the laws of nature. One may follow the laws of the land, but still be committing offence to the injunctions of God. And as such they would be subject to various ādhidaivika sufferings, ādhidaivika is floods, earthquakes, pandemics, excessive heat or excessive cold, flooding. So those things are beyond the control of the human beings. So, in the present time, in India it seems that, in the corona pandemic that liquor shops are free to open, because the government makes tax. This is breaking the laws of nature. Maybe it may be legal to open slaughterhouses and eat flesh, but on the injunctions of the scriptures it is illegal. Therefore, the people they suffer different ādhidaivika sufferings, which is beyond the control of the politicians. So, we should follow both, the laws of the land and the laws of God, and the laws of God should take precedence.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.158

tomāra vedete āche go-vadhera vāṇī
ataeva go-vadha kare baḍa baḍa muni

Translation: As a learned scholar, the Kazi challenged Caitanya Mahāprabhu, “In Your Vedic scriptures there is an injunction for killing a cow. On the strength of this injunction, great sages performed sacrifices involving cow-killing.”

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.159

punarjīvanaprāptihetu veda-vihita vadha-samarthana

prabhu kahe,—vede kahe go-vadha niṣedha
ataeva hindu-mātra nā kare go-vadha

Translation Refuting the Kazi’s statement, the Lord immediately replied, “The Vedas clearly enjoin that cows should not be killed. Therefore, every Hindu, whoever he may be, avoids indulging in cow-killing.

Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: In the Vedic scriptures there are concessions for meat-eaters. It is said that if one wants to eat meat, he should kill a goat before the goddess Kālī and then eat its meat. Meat-eaters are not allowed to purchase meat or flesh from a market or slaughterhouse. There are no sanctions for maintaining regular slaughterhouses to satisfy the tongues of meat-eaters. As far as cow-killing is concerned, it is completely forbidden. Since the cow is considered a mother, how could the Vedas allow cow-killing? Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu pointed out that the Kazi’s statement was faulty. In the Bhagavad-gītā (18.44) there is a clear injunction that cows should be protected: kṛṣi-gorakṣya-vāṇijyaṁ vaiśya-karma svabhāva-jam. “The duty of vaiśyas is to produce agricultural products, trade and give protection to cows.” Therefore it is a false statement that the Vedic scriptures contain injunctions permitting cow-killing.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.160

jiyāite pāre yadi, tabe māre prāṇī
veda-purāṇe āche hena ājñā-vāṇī

Translation “In the Vedas and Purāṇas there are injunctions declaring that if one can revive a living being, one can kill it for experimental purposes.

Jayapatākā Swami: So, in other words, if someone has the power to revive a living being from death, then they could perform that sacrifice and to show the power of Vedic mantras.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.161

ataeva jarad-gava māre muni-gaṇa
veda-mantre siddha kare tāhāra jīvana

Translation “Therefore the great sages sometimes killed old cows, and by chanting Vedic hymns they brought them back to life for perfection.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.162

jarad-gava hañā yuvā haya āra-vāra
tāte tāra vadha nahe, haya upakāra

Translation “The killing and rejuvenation of such old and invalid cows was not truly killing but an act of great benefit.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.163

kalisambhava brāhmaṇa niḥśaktika —

kali-kāle taiche śakti nāhika brāhmaṇe
ataeva go-vadha keha nā kare ekhane

Translation “Formerly there were powerful brāhmaṇas who could make such experiments using Vedic hymns, but now, because of the Kali-yuga, brāhmaṇas are not so powerful. Therefore the killing of cows and bulls for rejuvenation is forbidden.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.164

malamāsatattve dhṛta brahmavaivartīya kṛṣṇa-janma-khaṇḍe (185.180)—

aśvamedhaṁ gavālambhaṁ
sannyāsaṁ pala-paitṛkam
devareṇa sutotpattiṁ
kalau pañca vivarjayet

aśvamedha, gomedha, sannyāsa, māṁsadvārā pitṛśrāddha, devaradvārā sutotpatti kalikāle ei pāmcaṭī niṣiddha haḍyāche.

Translation: “In this Age of Kali, five acts are forbidden: the offering of a horse in sacrifice, the offering of a cow in sacrifice, the acceptance of the order of sannyāsa, the offering of oblations of flesh to the forefathers, and a man’s begetting children in his brother’s wife.”

Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: This is a quotation from the Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa (Kṛṣṇa-janma-khaṇḍa 185.180).

Jayapatākā Swami: So, because brāhmaṇas are not so powerful in the present age, to rejuvenate a dead living entity to life, therefore this sacrifice of a horse or cow is prohibited. In the order of sannyāsa, one goes and lives in the forest, is also prohibited, that’s why if someone takes sannyāsa in the present day, they live in an āśrama with devotees.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.165

prabhukartṛka, islāma-dharnmācārera samālocanā :—

tomarā jīyāite nāra,—vadha-mātra sāra
naraka ha-ite tomāra nāhika nistāra

Translation “Since you Muslims cannot bring killed cows back to life, you are responsible for killing them. Therefore you are going to hell; there is no way for your deliverance.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.166

go-aṅge yata loma, tata sahasra vatsara
go-vadhī raurava-madhye pace nirantara

Translation “Cow-killers are condemned to rot in hellish life for as many thousands of years as there are hairs on the body of the cow.

Jayapatākā Swami: So according to the Vedas if one eats cow flesh, they are responsible for killing the cow, and they live in the hellish condition for many thousands of years, as hairs on the cow’s body. We cannot even count the number of hairs on the body of a cow! So that is why, the first injunction that the Kṛṣṇa conscious devotees follow is, not to eat any flesh and by the process of spiritual life, one is forgiven for one’s previous offences. So, to save the world from this horrible reaction to their sinful acts, of killing and eating cow or bull flesh, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is providing a positive alternative.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.167

tomā-sabāra śāstra-kartā—seha bhrānta haila
nā jāni’ śāstrera marma aiche ājñā dila

Translation “There are many mistakes and illusions in your scriptures. Their compilers, not knowing the essence of knowledge, gave orders that were against reason and argument.”

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.168

kājī niruttara o śāstrera asampūrṇatā svīkāra —

śuni’ stabdha haila kājī, nāhi sphure vāṇī
vicāriyā kahe kājī parābhava māni’

Translation After hearing these statements by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the Kazi, his arguments stunned, could not put forward any more words. Thus, after due consideration, the Kazi accepted defeat and spoke as follows.

Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: In our practical preaching work we meet many Christians who talk about statements of the Bible. When we question whether God is limited or unlimited, Christian priests say that God is unlimited. But when we question why the unlimited God should have only one son and not unlimited sons, they are unable to answer. Similarly, from a scientific point of view, the answers of the Old Testament, New Testament and Koran to many questions have changed. But a śāstra cannot change at a person’s whim. All śāstras must be free from the four defects of human nature. The statements of śāstras must be correct for all time.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.168

kājī niruttara o śāstrera asampūrṇatā svīkāra —

śuni’ stabdha haila kājī, nāhi sphure vāṇī
vicāriyā kahe kājī parābhava māni’

Translation After hearing these statements by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the Kazi, his arguments stunned, could not put forward any more words. Thus, after due consideration, the Kazi accepted defeat and spoke as follows.

Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: In our practical preaching work we meet many Christians who talk about statements of the Bible. When we question whether God is limited or unlimited, Christian priests say that God is unlimited. But when we question why the unlimited God should have only one son and not unlimited sons, they are unable to answer. Similarly, from a scientific point of view, the answers of the Old Testament, New Testament and Koran to many questions have changed. But a śāstra cannot change at a person’s whim. All śāstras must be free from the four defects of human nature. The statements of śāstras must be correct for all time.

Jayapatākā Swami: So His Divine Grace Abhaya Caraṇa Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, is explaining some of the practical discussions he is having with the leaders of different religions, and how the practices which the members of these different religions perform, are not correct, even according to their own scriptures, and how the different interpretations of the scriptures, different people have changed the scriptures over the time. In early Christianity, there was an acceptance of reincarnation, and after the 5^th century that was apparently edited out of most versions of the Bible. So, the śāstra should not be changed by some political influence, śāstra is the word of God and cannot be changed.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.169

tumi ye kahile, paṇḍita, sei satya haya
ādhunika āmāra śāstra, vicāra-saha naya

Translation “My dear Nimāi Paṇḍita, what You have said is all true. Our scriptures have developed only recently, and they are certainly not logical and philosophical.

Purport by Śrīla Prabhupāda: The śāstras of the Yavanas, or meat-eaters, are not eternal scriptures. They have been fashioned recently, and sometimes they contradict one another. The scriptures of the Yavanas are three: the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran. Their compilation has a history; they are not eternal like the Vedic knowledge. Therefore although they have their arguments and reasonings, they are not very sound and transcendental. As such, modern people advanced in science and philosophy deem these scriptures unacceptable.

Sometimes Christian priests come to us inquiring, “Why are our followers neglecting our scriptures and accepting yours?” But when we ask them, “Your Bible says, ‘Do not kill.’ Why then are you killing so many animals daily?” they cannot answer. Some of them imperfectly answer that the animals have no souls. But then we ask them, “How do you know that animals have no souls? Animals and children are of the same nature. Does this mean that the children of human society also have no souls?” According to the Vedic scriptures, within the body is the owner of the body, the soul. In the Bhagavad-gītā (2.13) it is said:

dehino ’smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
tathā dehāntara-prāptir
dhīras tatra na muhyati

“As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.”

Because the soul is within the body, the body changes through so many forms. There is a soul within the body of every living creature, whether animal, tree, bird or human being, and the soul is transmigrating from one type of body to another. When the scriptures of the Yavanas—namely the Old Testament, New Testament and Koran—cannot properly answer inquisitive followers, naturally those advanced in scientific knowledge and philosophy lose faith in such scriptures. The Kazi admitted this while talking with Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. The Kazi was a very intelligent person. He had full knowledge of his position, as stated in the following verse.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.170

kalpita āmāra śāstra,—āmi saba jāni
jāti-anurodhe tabu sei śāstra māni

Translation: “I know that our scriptures are full of imagination and mistaken ideas, yet because I am a Muslim I accept them for the sake of my community, despite their insufficient support.

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, 17.171

sahaje yavana-śāstre adṛḍha vicāra
hāsi’ tāhe mahāprabhu puchena āra-vāra

Translation: “The reasoning and arguments in the scriptures of the meat-eaters are not very sound,” the Kazi concluded. Upon hearing this statement, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu smiled and inquired from him as follows.

Thus, ends the chapter, Lord Gaurāṅga Convinces Kazi that Killing Cows is Forbidden.

Jayapatākā Swami: So, the Vedas and Vedic literatures are existing since time immemorial, and therefore they are not subject to the changes of the world, and they are very scientific and sound. So, respecting the different scriptures of the meat eaters, Lord Caitanya pointed out their shortcomings, and the Chand Kazi also accepted, that they are not fully philosophical or reasonable, and so we would like to present to the world, how the Vedic scriptures are very scientific and reasonable, and answer many of the questions that the modern man is trying to understand.

In our Temple Of Vedic Planetarium, in Māyāpur, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda told us to showcase the Vedic cosmology and the Vedic science, so that the people of the world could understand, how the Vedas are very special books of knowledge, and that this is an essential study for human beings.

So, since this was translation and purport by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, we don’t think we could do any better, translating purports by Śrīla Prabhupāda. So, that’s why we have the translation read, that Śrīla Prabhupāda has given. So, we can see that the initial situation when millions of people in Lord Caitanya’s saṅkīrtana, arrived at the house of the Chand Kazi, there were a lot of people who were very angry at the persecution of the Chand Kazi of the Hindus. But finally, Lord Caitanya was able to bring the discussion to a reasonable discussion of the scriptures. So, this sets the stage for the following discussion, on the saṅkīrtana movement. Hare Kṛṣṇa!

So, we have time for one question. Many of our translators, Chinese, Russian, they had to run because of the gale storm that came up. Oh, they are still here. Any question?

It is very interesting, because here we see how Lord Caitanya, at that time there was a Moghul or Muslim rule in India, at least in many parts of India, and Lord Caitanya was discussing, He knew the Koran, he knew the Vedas, because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He knows all the scriptures. He was pointing out what the shortcomings of the different meat eaters’ scriptures were, especially the Koran. Because at that time India had basically Hindus and Muslims, and there were some Buddhists, and very few Christians, but Śrīla Prabhupāda, when he went to the West, he had to deal with Christians. So, he had similar discussions on scriptures. So, what we are seeing here is the beginning of an interfaith exchange between the Kazi, who was an expert on the Koran and Lord Caitanya, who is expert on the Vedic scriptures and the Koran, so it is very interesting. So similarly, we can also engage with the interfaith discussions, and in a very friendly manner, we can come to the conclusions. The actual purpose of all the scriptures is love of God, and that is what is missing in the modern world.

Question: Hare Kṛṣṇa Guru Mahārāja! Please accept my respectful obeisances. (Jayapatākā Swami said: Accepted). Chand Kazi stopped saṅkīrtana, devotees were beaten by him. Still Lord Caitanya showered His mercy upon him. At that time there were some people in Navadvīpa who were brāhmaṇas and others, who were accepting the scriptures although they were envious to devotees. But the Lord did not give them mercy. How can we understand this? Mahānanda Caitanya dāsa.

Jayapatākā Swami: Well, we have to tune in for the further discussion between Lord Caitanya and the Chand Kazi. Lord Caitanya brought up some challenging points and finally the Kazi accepted defeat. So unfortunately, these brāhmaṇas who are atheists, they don’t come and discuss with Lord Caitanya, and if they did, they could also be convinced. But instead they like to criticize and offend from a distance. Similarly, Cāpāla Gopāla he was brāhmaṇa who criticized Lord Caitanya and Śrīvasa Ṭhākura. Because of his offence to Śrīvasa, he got leprosy. He prayed to Lord Caitanya for His mercy, and Lord Caitanya said, you have to get forgiven from Śrīvasa, for your offence to him. So, he asked Śrīvasa to forgive him, and Śrīvasa forgave him and he was accepted by Lord Caitanya. It is not that brāhmaṇas cannot be accepted by Lord Caitanya, who were offensive in the begin, they also became repentant, and got forgiven for their offence, they were accepted by Lord Caitanya. He embraced Cāpāla Gopāla, once he was forgiven by Śrīvasa. Thank you all very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa!