19960825 Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.26.25

The following is a class given by His Holiness Jayapatākā Swami on August 25^th 1996 in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. The class begins with reading from the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, 5^th canto, chapter 26, verse 25.

Jayapatākā Swami: We are taken off to the hellish planets in the subtle body. Just like when someone dreams, and that they may dream that they were eaten by tiger, or they may dream that they have been bit by snake, or attacked by a thief. And in the dream, they are experiencing the fear, the emotions, even the pain. And when they wake up, they find their body is not destroyed. So, in the subtle body they go through all of the punishment, all the torture. But because they are in the subtle body… they think they are in a gross body. Like when you are dreaming, you think you are in the gross body. You don’t know you are still in the subtle body. They feel they are in the gross body and they are suffering like that. But actually, they are in the subtle body. So, they don’t get destroyed. They just go through all these hellish experiences, based upon different kinds of sinful activities they are doing. Telling lies, of bearing false witness. Such a common thing in modern society. You can’t trust people, especially doing business. Many times people tell so many lies. This is just ordinary lies, you get thrown off a mountain and smashed into pieces, for cheating people.

Like in India, there was a case… I am sure these things happens in different countries. Once some businessman adulterated so-called ‘edible oil’ with Mobil oil and other kinds of inedible oil, and it caused hundreds of people to go blind, paralyzed, and sick, and some people to die. They were doing it for a long time, but then accidently the worker might be put too much. So people were getting their liver destroyed. Too many kilos, it will become highly poisonous. It was in the paper. These kinds of things happening. So people may think that they are making a little profit. Like in some rice stores, there are the stores in some of the cities where you can buy all kinds of little white stones, just to put in rice bags. So you won’t see them, they are white, like marble chips. Say you have thousand bags of rice, and you put two kilos of stone in each bag mixed with the rice, or one kilo, you make a thousand kilo rice, there is one ton of rice extra profit. So, in the rice they are mixing the stone. You don’t notice one kilo. So you get one ton of rice profit, minus labor charge and how much this stone cost.  So, they have stones itself… rice color stones, brown color stones, you get red for the red dal, yellow for the yellow dal. The government, they’re just selling stones but these stones exactly made to look like dal. Think of all the dentist, they get extra job because of this. Good for somebody, good for dentist. But by doing such things, they may think that I am making immediate profit. But they don’t know that afterwards, they are going to pay for it, dearly.

So devotees should know that there is a hellish situation. Because sometimes devotees think I can do anything and I am impervious, like a superman or something. We can do anything under the order of guru, specifically if it is ordered. Our guru is taking responsibility. B   ut not that we can do anything, even it is prohibited by sādhu, śāstra, and guru. Then we are going to have to be responsible. Lord Nityānanda had clearly stated this, that the devotees are responsible for whatever they do that’s not authorized by the guru. So, as long as you are following the principles, and following the spiritual master, and youre not doing any of these things, naturally you are not going to be subject. And even if someone did any of these things before they were devotee, after surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, they also are freed. But they need to continue with their devotional service to take out the roots of the seeds of all those karmas. Income tax. In one country I heard that, one of my disciples said that, one year they paid all the income tax. Thought that they should be honest. Then income tax collector came and said, “What are you doing?

“I paid my tax.”

“Oh! This is very bad. If you pay your tax, government is going to ask why everybody else isn’t paying so much.  I brought your money back. Take it back. Here is your form. You only pay a small amount, and give me a bribe. And you take more money, but don’t pay all the tax like this. You will put us in big trouble.” (laughter) It’s like otherwise I really give you trouble.

Of course, the other way, sometimes… I had another devotee said even they tried to pay their regular tax, they got angry because by paying the full tax, then they thought they don’t have to pay the bribe to the income tax people. So they were giving more harassment. They had to pay more tax. They said, “I paid already the full tax, there is no profit margin.” So, in case this people are really plundering merchants by forcing them to pay income tax. The businessmen can have at least the satisfaction that they will be thrown into this nice hell known as Sārameyādana when 720 dogs with big teeth will tear them and rip them to shreds. Can you imagine being ripped alive by wild dogs?  So, the government that overtaxes is considered a thief. Government is allowed to tax certain proportion. For the proper kind of taxation, there is no problem. But over taxation is a theft. Actually, the merchants aren’t supposed to be over taxed, because the merchants are supposed to use their money to do charitable work. Now the government wants to be giving all the charity. So, they’re over taxing and then making social funds. But originally the social system was that the government wasn’t so top-heavy and the people themselves were naturally charitable. So, nobody would go hungry in society. No householder would eat without asking if there was a hungry person. So anyone who was actually hungry or jobless, they could get a free meal. So without big social unemployment agencies, which you have to pay so many people. You don’t really want to eat in other people’s homes. If you are really hungry, then you do it. So automatically, they just avoid it. If someone is really jobless or there is no money, then they could always get a meal at somebody else’s house. That encourages people to remain employed. At the same time nobody went hungry.  Anyway, now it’s not practical, many of the Vedic things. But it is good to understand how the system was organized, and how it was working. Maybe more favorable times, we can take some inspiration from that.

Actually, without devotees preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, people are basically… I have to read out 26 to 29 different hells. More or less everybody is doing something for which they deserve to go to one of these hells. Or more. Someone got multiple bookings. The next verse here is about…

Text 29

Any brāhmaṇa or brāhmaṇa's wife who drinks liquor is taken by the agents of Yamarāja to the hell known as Ayaḥpāna. This hell also awaits any kṣatriya, vaiśya, or person under a vow who in illusion drinks soma-rasa. In Ayaḥpāna the agents of Yamarāja stand on their chests and pour hot melted iron into their mouths.

Purport: One should not be a brāhmaṇa in name only and engage in all kinds of sinful activities, especially drinking liquor. Brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas and vaiśyas must behave according to the principles of their order. If they fall down to the level of śūdras, who are accustomed to drinking liquor, they will be punished as described herein.

Jayapatākā Swami: How many are there born in brāhmaṇa family who are drinking liquor today. It is incalculable. There’s so many. I would say most brāhmaṇas. So called brāhmaṇas are doing all kinds of sinful things like this. But only a small percentage are vegetarian and following the principles. Mainly in South India, that percentage is more than other places.  But considering, by flying on the airplanes, you see that in some parts of India majority people are all taking nonveg meals. And actually, high percentage of them are the brāhmaṇa families, kṣatriya families and vaiśyas.  So, they have to take all these reactions. It seems people are not very knowledgeable about hell. In other religions hell is very big. In Christianity, hell and brimstone is the famous way they preach. In Islam, hell is very big. In the Chinese tradition, they have lot of hells. We saw in Singapore, they have one exhibition in the Tiger Balm Park and you can see the hells.  All of them very similar hells. Because Indian culture, Vedas, have gone to China.  So, China, many of Chinese religious heritage coming from India, or most of them. But then they got little bit translated or adopted. So people are basically in a very fallen condition. So they are going to suffer a lot.  But somehow, those who are very sinful, they don’t think about it. They think there is no such thing like hell.  Modern science says there is no God. This is all mythology or something. So then they think, “Well I don’t have to worry about. Eat, drink and merry! Tomorrow I die and its all over. There is nothing after death.”

Prabhupāda said one time, “Who is crazy?” He discussed this point because the materialists say the devotees are crazy because you could be enjoying life, partying, enjoying. You are crazy because you are giving up all the fun and you are just chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa so on.  Of course, they don’t understand that for the devotee chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, once you get over the initial neophyte platform, is very pleasant. It gives great joy. But they’re just thinking that, “If I couldn’t be drinking liquor or something, then I am being very unhappy.” So, as a result, they become very proud and they just keep on doing sinful activities. And they say, “Well you devotees are crazy!” And devotees say, “You are crazy! You are giving up your eternal life, you are giving up your eternal happiness and you’re just heading yourself to hell. So you are crazy!” So, then Prabhupāda posed the question who is crazy? Will the real crazy please stand up? (laughter) So in a nutshell you could say, well the materialist is saying the devotee is crazy because you are missing out all the fun of life. But actually the devotee is living in the faith of the Lord. Somehow, they are also happy. They did study in Los Angeles many years ago, and they found that in devotees the instance of depression was practically non-existent, where in normal society depression is quite common phenomena.  People tend to go through periods of depression because you want to enjoy, make all kinds of plans. They don’t work out, you get depressed.  They get new plans. They get depressed because they don’t know how I can be happy. Well devotee, since they are always  optimistic about their Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are feeling quite happy one way or another.

So, the devotees they are feeling happy. But the atheist may say this is a fools paradise because when will you die there is nothing. So, Prabhupāda said, “If you say there is nothing, say you are right. What will be the loss? We are happy. If there is absolutely nothing, then life doesn’t have any value either. So, at the end of this life it’s over. We haven’t lost anything. We were happy living in a fool’s paradise according to your theory. But you take the other end that all the scriptures in the world are right. There is karmas and sin and pious and impious reactions. There are hells. There is afterlife, which now even modern science, by hypnotism, they’re finding people can remember previous lives. It’s very common nowadays in the West. So, in this way, yes, we are right. There is afterlife, and there we really cash in. We hit the jack pot. Whole life we’ve been serving Kṛṣṇa. This life we’ve been peaceful and happy. We got free from that contaminations of materialistic life and now we’re eligible to go back home, back to Godhead.  Where the materialist whose spent their whole life in anxiety, “How to stay happy?”, become a slave to the senses and force to be kicked around by the modes of material nature. It’s not that it’s all joy when they try to do sense gratification. There is all depression. There is moments of unhappiness. Then there is frustration, and fear, and lamentation, and then they get some moments of happiness and some spacing out, different things. There are lot of ups and downs in material life for most people. Especially in Kali-yuga, because people are not so pious. In the past, a person is a very pious sense gratifier. Only the pious sense gratifier are those who believe in the afterlife. If you don’t believe there’s any afterlife, if youre atheist, the tendency is to go for the tāmasika side. Otherwise the pious sense gratifiers, they were also having certain peace. They have ups and downs, but they are not so big. So if we’re right, then at the end of life those people, they are going to visit all these wonderful vacation spots by Yamarāja. You can have a special brochure. I was thinking he could have a computer programmed for the different kinds of activities and see as people worship them, then they give them a report card that how many hells they are eligible to visit.

Like in Māyāpur Vedic planetarium, they are going to show all of these hells. Since some of these hells is so gross, I was perplexed. Because some of these descriptions are not something really you want to be graphically shown. I wanted to show a diorama of the sin, and then a diorama of the punishment. The sins, they are so grotesque, I don’t like to show those things. I am hard-pressed how to do it.  One concept I have, but if there’s anybody who likes to think about exhibitions how to show things in interesting ways, we can always use some help. You can tell me what you think. I was thinking that we could have a special show, where we have Yamarāja in his court. And then on a video screen nearby, we have different candidates being brought. Maybe in front, a few Yamadūta dioramas, moving animatronics and occasionally an animatronic candidate brought. Otherwise brought up on a screen. And when the person stands there, then Chitragupta or some other accountant of Yamarāja reads out what the karma is of that person. What they did wrong. And then Yamarāja sends him to whichever is the appropriate hell.  Then we can show the hell, maybe using some computer-generated graphics. It is very hard actually to show these things. Have to do it by some cartoon type of animated character. Try to show this in real life, there will be nothing left of the people. And go quickly through the different hells and end up with a little of the other side of Yamarāja.

Yamarāja has two sides. When he sits in the hell to judge, he’s got a special face which has horns on it and he has a very ferocious look. Maybe that’s where people get idea of the devil. But then there is another side of Yamarāja, where he is in Pitṛloka with all the pious forefathers, and there he discussing Bhāgavatam and Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and he is very handsome and beautiful, and he is very gentle. So it’s like in England, when the judges put on the white hair. Yamarāja has a special mask which he puts on when he goes to the hell side. And when he is out of work, then he is normal. He is very beautiful to look at and very gentle. He is a great pure devotee, very religious. He incarnated as Vidura because he was cursed by a brāhmaṇa, who considered he gave a wrong judgement. Even Yamarāja is responsible for what he does. He has to give the proper judgement based on dharma. So, he knows the religious codes very very well. He is one of the great authorities. Yamarāja told the Yamadūtas, “Who should you bring to me? Those people don’t chant the name of Kṛṣṇa, those people that don’t wear tulasī-mālā on the neck, those people who don’t regularly do any worship to Lord Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu”.  He gave a list of the people not to bring. Those people who are doing devotional service, Yamarāja said, don’t bring them to me.  So, if you want to see the hells firsthand and go through all these punishments, then don’t do any devotional service, and don’t chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, and don’t follow these prescriptions here. Then you can see all the hells.  But if you don’t want to see the hells, then you just chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and follow the principles, and you won’t have to see them for sure. In fact, you can deliver your forefathers. That’s why we do śrāddha. On the śraddhā, death anniversary of forefathers, we can read Bhagavad-gītā, we can chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, we can offer them remnants of prasādam, and this way we can free them from all kinds of karmas, even in hellish situation. That’s why a son or daughter, in Sanskrit, is known as putra or putrī. Pu meaning hell and tra meaning deliver. So, your forefather somehow ends up in hellish existence, and this goes on and on for a long time. Keeps getting roasted and toasted, and broken and smashed and bitten and torn and just goes on and on. Of course, they can make a long time happen in a short time. The time is a flexible thing for them.  They’re able to adjust things on that plane. Someone could be taken and tortured for a long time, and then take birth again. But in this plane, time hardly went by. Prabhupāda said some of these hells are conditioning us for the next life. We get used to a certain type of punishment, and then after a while we qualify ourself to go to a pig body or animal body. Because from human body to pig is very difficult. But if you go through one of the hellish existences for a while, and then you get reconditioned and then you can go on to an animal body.

So many people are doing things in the mode of ignorance. Very sinful. They go back from human birth to animal birth and then they go to hell. They get reconditioned and then they go back.  So many people think that you can never go back to animal. Those who truly believe in reincarnation, they hope that. But there is that chance! People don’t know the laws of karma. How much it’s useful to use hell and brimstone preaching. How much fear works?

Lord Caitanya method has been mostly love. But in those days, when He was preaching, people didn’t know about the hells and they didn’t know that such a thing existing. And certainly, some of them, the pious ones, were afraid of breaking principles going to hell. And the Padma Purāṇa mentions how one disciple was sleeping in the same room with a guru, and in sleep he rolled over and kicked the guru with his foot. And because of that, he had to take a very bad birth. We don’t know how many mistakes we might commit to our guru inadvertently. So, that’s why every day we do guru-pūjā, we pray to guru for forgiveness.  When we do pūjā to Kṛṣṇa, we pray for forgiveness. There’s mantras to pray for forgiveness in case we made any offense.

So, Prabhupāda said by doing guru-pūjā and begging for forgiveness, the disciple gets freed from any offense.  Some people criticize the system of guru-pūjā, but we hope they have another way to get forgiven for any offense they committed to guru.  This is the method that Prabhupāda gave us, to both get blessing for devotion as well as to get free from any offense.  He made a daily ritual to give us the opportunity to avoid any kind of offenses, knowingly or unknowingly done.  So, in our preaching, of course this is there. We can’t deny the hells. But since most people, they are so faithless. Even if you told them about hell, they will say “Oh doesn’t relate to me. I don’t care.”  Just like you tell people, “Don’t smoke, it causes cancer.” And so many people think, “It’s my body, I can do what I want.”  Actually, this is not our body. Whole point is this body is not ours. This body belongs to Kṛṣṇa and He has given us these bodies to be used. If you want to use to enjoy in the body, then he tells the way you can use it.

It’s like a rented apartment. It’s not your apartment. You can’t suddenly take a sledgehammer smashing the walls down, destroying everything. Especially if it is a furnished apartment, you can’t even damage the furniture. You have to pay for it. You are only allowed normal wear and tear, normal use. So, the body is given by Kṛṣṇa. It is His property and if you use the body in the way He has allowed us to use, then there is no bad karma. And when we misuse the body, then we are responsible. But people, they are envious against their self even. They think body is themself and then they wanted to destroy themself. If someone thinks, “I am the body, it’s my body, it’s me. And if I want to destroy me, I can do.” I mean they are envious of their own self.  They are not only envious against God but they are destroying their own self. So, such people are already in hell. They are living dead because they are consciously killing themselves. Consciously. Slow death.

Prabhupāda said, the way we preach to people is, we become tolerant of other people’s sinful activities. Because we know what the right standard of action is.  And we are not going to do that. So, it doesn’t disturb us, doesn’t attract us. And we know that those people are under illusion. That is like a disease. We hate the disease but not the diseased. So we are going to be tolerant with other people’s contamination, and try to develop relationship with them so we can preach to them and we can get them to understand their own welfare.  So our manner of preaching is a little bit different. We don’t just yell at people, “You have to stop this! You will go to hell!” Actually those things don’t work unless the person is already a believer of God. The atheists, they don’t believe in hell. They don’t believe in afterlife, they don’t believe in God, so what does it matter? It’s like the ostrich or the rabbit. Just close your eyes, it’s not there. They can just say it doesn’t exist. Easy way out. “I’ll worry about that later.” And of course, later, they need to suffer. So, we don’t want people to suffer like that, but if we just go and use the hell and brimstone technique, people will turn off. There will be scared away. They’ll say, “These people, I don’t like the way they preach.” So instead, we try to engage people and show them how devotional service is also fun. You want to be happy, do this. It is also fun. Nice association. You are very philosophical. Well, you should come and discuss philosophy. Sometimes you should flatter the people. This is for most intelligent people to come and discuss philosophy. So they come and discuss.  They think, “I am intelligent. I can also enjoy by discussing little philosophy and then I’ll go have a beer.” It’s one of the things we do, we discuss philosophy.

But in discussing philosophy of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then people start to realize that it is a higher purpose to life. So, we’re tolerant with people. Instead of getting too heavy with them, we engage them and find out what they like to do. You talk to them and say, “Would you like to do something? Something you like to do for Kṛṣṇa?” and let them do what they like to do for Kṛṣṇa as an offering. So then this way, gradually, on their own they think, “I like to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Maybe I’d like to shave my hair or maybe I’d like to take some type of initiation or shelter or maybe I’d like to have a Kṛṣṇa conscious program in my house.”  These kinds of desires come in their mind, if you don’t force them too much. If they’re intellectual people, you can’t force them. Maybe very simple people. This means that just talking about hell or punishment will have some effect on very simple kind of people. But today, the modern sophisticated person, that doesn’t work so well. So, Prabhupāda said that we can preach by any means. We have to be well grounded and preach in this way. And this way you can get intelligent class of people. So, Kṛṣṇa Conscious movement is usually trying to get more intelligent class of people, because that is better for preaching.  So we’re not always going to be showing hells like in the park in Singapore. We will show the hells, the heavens, earthly planets, all the different planets, the Devalokas. We will take people on a complete tour.  Tour of the visible and invisible cosmos. The fourth dimension. The anti-material world as well.

So, because the devotees are so compassionate and they’re tolerant with people’s sins and they keep on preaching to them, eventually many people decided they want to change their habits and take up Kṛṣṇa Consciousness in a more complete manner. We need every one to become expert to preach. Every man, every woman, young and old. They should all become proficient on how to chant, how to talk from Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, how to explain the philosophy, how to do basic services, how to do pūjās, at least to tulasī, guru. Offer prasādam. Basic cooking. Everyone should be expert in the basic things.  That way anywhere they go, they can always train someone how to do these things. Sometimes I talk to husband and wife. The wife does all offering. The husband says, “I don’t offer. My wife cooks and offers. I don’t know the mantra.”

“So, what you do when you travel?”

“Well then I just kind of say Śrī Viṣṇu.” (laughter)

“So, why don’t you learn how to offer also? You can also learn a basic few cooking. What if sometime your wife is sick?”

“Well, I make a big mess in the kitchen.” (laughter)

He knows little bit. Of course, it works the other way. Sometime the husband does and the wife doesn’t do. So, we want husband, wife, everybody they should know the basic things. In fact this is one of my goals for the congregational preaching. To have a basic curriculum and the cell group ideas that we will have a training program that over a period of time, as people go through it, they will actually go through the basic curriculum and someone can specialize more in a particular area and become certified professors or instructors, trainers. Maybe in deity worship, or in saṁskāras, or in preaching or so many different aspects. But there’s so many things to do, that’s like a second phase. First phase is to get the program started. We’d like to give everybody opportunity to train. And in the future we see that the temple will also be not only place of worship but also a training centre. We will have an auditorium or place for seminars and people will come and learn. May have different facilities. We can have bigger place like we have like in Māyāpur. We have a dental facility in the future, and medical, all kinds of health facilities. We have some basic things now. Some doctors from Malaysia wants to set up clinic. And also from Bombay one pathologist. So, maybe in a big farm, in the future, we also have some community. That people like to live in a Kṛṣṇa conscious community. Most people, for the foreseeable future, going to be living in a general society, unless it becomes too hellish. We may have some alternative farms, where we grow our own food and people can live there simply and practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness. All these kinds of projects in the beginning are going to be mainly oriented also for training. People need to be trained. So, this training is a very important thing. If people are trained properly, they can avoid not only hell, but they can avoid all kinds of anxieties and they can easily achieve success in this life. So, if there are any questions, any comments. You can tell me what you think about the hell exhibition, if you have any other ideas. Any questions?

Question: Why did the Pāṇḍavas go to hell?

Jayapatākā Swami: Actually, they didn’t go to hell. It was an illusion presented to Yudhiṣṭhira. He thought they were in hell. That was the test of Yudhiṣṭhira.  Actually, the Pāṇḍavas didn’t have to go. But it was a test, that if his brothers were in hell, where would he want to go? “You could go to heaven but your brothers will be in hell.” So he said, “No. I will stay with my brothers.” The fact that he toured hell. He didn’t actually go there but it was like he went there as a guest. It’s bad enough. I mean just to hear these things is bad enough. Truly horrible. To hear the sins and then read the punishments. Go through this verse by verse is itself some kind of torture. But hopefully it has some educational purpose. So Yamarāja, just by giving a brief tour, had kind of two purposes: one is of course he was a son of Yamarāja, and so he could visit his father’s place. You know kids always like to visit where their father works sometimes. But that is a secondary aspect. The other aspect was that because when Yudhiṣṭhira hesitated to follow Kṛṣṇa’s order, to say Aśvatthāmā is dead, so it was kind of an offense and because of that he had to visit hell. He visited in a glorious way, because he went wanting to be with his brothers. Because of a chivalrous mood. “If they are in hell then I will go.” But actually, they were not in hell they don’t have to see. And only he saw like a guest.

So we should not hesitate to carry out our duties for Kṛṣṇa or doubt Kṛṣṇa. Yamarāja said don’t bring those people that are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa then why would we go there?  Of course if its for preaching we can go anywhere, but I think it is very difficult to preach to someone when they’re getting ripped into pieces and thrown from mountain tops, burnt at the stake and all these things going on. It’s not a good place to be preaching in hell. Its too much, it’s too intense. Even the tortures given by the inquisition, to use such things to get people to convert, still are not anything compared to what is presented here. But they did the best they could on this planet. There is lot of genocide, horrible things going on in this world but people who perpetrate those things, they are looking forward to having similar things done to them, or worse.

But the hope is actually Kṛṣṇa forgives people. We get forgiven, even by a little devotional service. I told different stories like a king offered even one flower and chanted the name “Nārāyaṇa” at the time of his death, and he going to be dragged off to hell but because he chants “Nārāyaṇa”, he was taken back to Godhead. There are so many different pastimes. I told earlier that story about two people, husband and wife, who were very sinful and the wife killed the husband. And then later the husband took birth as a vulture and she took birth as a parrot.  After they went to hell, they were punished there. But how they fell dead upside down on the skull of some skeleton. And they found that Yamarāja came back he reallocated them to new punishment. Then he told them that, “You are both free.”

“How are we free?”

“You are both free.”

“We were very sinful people. How did we get free?” 

“Well, that skull you fell in when you were killed, the water; that skull was of great devotee that was chanting everyday fifth chapter of Bhagavat-gītā.  And by reading fifth chapter everyday, his body became so purified that even the water in his upside down skull is  like holy water. And you touched it so you got purified. You can go back to Godhead. So, if we read Bhagavad-gītā every day, if we chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, we do our devotional service there is no question.