20091231 Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.13.25

oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya

 

nārāyaṇaṁ namaskṛtya

naraṁ caiva narottamam

devīṁ sarasvatīṁ vyāsaṁ

tato jayam udīrayet

 

Mūkaṁ karoti vācālaṁ paṅguṁ laṅghayate girim

yat-kṛpāṁ tam ahaṁ vande śrī-guruṁ dīna-tāraṇam

paramānandaṁ mādhavaṁ śrī-caitanya-īśvaram

hariḥ oṁ tat sat

 

Jaya śrī Caitanya śrī Gaura Nitāi ki jaya śrī Rukmiṇī Dvārakādiśa ki jaya

śrī Jagannātha Baladeva Subhadrā ki jaya

Śrīla Prabhupāda ki jaya

Nitāi-Gaura premānande Hari Haribol

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.13.25

sauvīra-patirapisujana-samavagata-paramātma-satattvaātmanyavidyādhyāropitāṁ ca dehātma-matiṁvisasarja; evaṁ hi nṛpabhagavad-āśritāśritānubhāvaḥ.

sauvīra-patiḥ—the king of the state of Sauvīra;api—certainly;su-jana—from an elevated person;samavagata—having completely understood;paramātma-sa-tattvaḥ—the truth of the constitutional position of the spirit soul and the Supersoul; ātmani—in himself;avidyā—by nescience;adhyāropitām—erroneously attributed; ca—and;deha—in the body; ātma-matim—the concept of the self;visasarja—completely gave up;evam—thus; hi—certainly;nṛpa—O King;bhagavat-āśrita-āśrita-anubhāvaḥ—the consequence of taking shelter of a devotee who has similarly taken shelter of a spiritual master in the paramparā system (one is sure to get out of the great nescience of the bodily concept of life).

TRANSLATION

After receiving lessons from the great devotee Jaḍa Bharata, King Rahūgaṇa of the state of Sauvīra became completely aware of the constitutional position of the soul. He thus gave up the bodily conception completely. My dear King, whoever takes shelter of the servant of the servant of the Lord is certainly glorified because he can without difficulty give up the bodily conception [Cc. Madhya 13.80].

PURPORT

As stated in Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 22.54):

"sādhu-saṅga", "sādhu-saṅga"—sarva-śāstre kaya
lava-mātrasādhu-saṅgesarva-siddhi haya

It is a fact that if one takes shelter of a pure devotee, one attains all perfection, even if the association is a short one. A sādhu is a pure devotee of the Lord. It has been our practical experience that the first instruction of our spiritual master infused us with Kṛṣṇa consciousness so that now we are at least on the path of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and can understand the philosophy. As a result, there are many devotees engaged in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. The whole world is revolving under the bodily conception; therefore there must be devotees all over the world to deliver people from the false bodily conception and fully engage them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

Jayapatākā Swami: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Can you hear me? It is ok.

So, today is the 31st of December, the last day in the year of most of the Western world, and on this day we heard a very nice verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, that by hearing the servant. even the servant of the servant of the Supreme Lord, we will get freed from the bodily conception of life. So, this is a very great mercy that the King Rahūgaṇa got.

If you remember that King Rahūgaṇa, he started off by taking Jaḍa Bharata as a bearer on his palanquin, because one of his bearer had injured his foot, but Jaḍa Bharata, he was trying to avoid all of the ants. So, he also walked irregularly. So, then the king started to blast him, “You fool, you fat idiot, you know like. so, he gave sauce so to speak. So, he gave him some very critical terms, but Jaḍa Bharata, he replied in a very philosophical way, “I am not fat, I am not skinny, I am not the body, I am the spirit soul. I am not idiot, I am not smart, I am not the mind, I am the spirit soul.” So, like this he was replying. And then immediately King Rahūgaṇa, who as a king was he was able to distinguish that this person was not a ordinary person, that he was a very learned person. So, he got down, and he fell down, “Please forgive me! Tell me who are you. You are not speaking like a bearer You are speaking like a paṇḍita, like someone who is very learned.” Of course, I don’t know actually if Rahūgaṇa figured out who Jaḍa Bharata was, that he is actually the Bharata Mahārāja who was the emperor of the entire world, who gave up his position as a emperor to engage in meditation, but because of his attachment to a deer baby, he took birth as a deer, and then his third birth he was determined not to be misled. So, he was taking he was acting as if he was deaf and dumb, although he was in the full faculties. So, he was used to scare away the crows and the sparrows by bringing them on something to keep them away.

So, actually many things happened to Jaḍa Bharata, as a scarecrow he is standing, and he was taken away by thieves. Actually the Russian devotees, they in Alaska. Not only the Russian, but primarily Russian, they performed the drama of Jaḍa Bharata, and they had the scene where he was taken captive by the dacoits, and taken to the temple of Bhadra kālī, where he was to be offered as an human sacrifice, but actually Bhadra kālī is a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, and she knew that Jaḍa Bharata was a great devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So, it was very dramatically shown how Bhadra kālī came to life with all of her śaktis, and they chopped the heads of the dacoits, and tossed heads around, and danced very wildly. There was quite a scene. And they had this lady who was dancing, as Bhadra kālī she knew Bhārata-nāṭyam. So, she waved her hands in a very artistic way. There was… being… music. At the end of the scene there was Jaḍa Bharata, the śaktis, and Bhadra kālī, and all the dacoits were dead lying down. So, it is interesting. So, the people they like action scene. So, this Jaḍa Bharata, his parents apparently didn’t know that he was sick, and who he was they thought he was sick. They didn’t know all this things happened to him. So, while he was sitting there guarding the field he was caught by this King Rahūgaṇa. So, after the king realized that he is not ordinary soul, he wants to hear from him. So, the Jaḍa Bharata instructed him in the science of self-realization. So, in his way King Rahūgaṇa became freed from his bodily conception of life. It is quite interesting actually. It is kind of arrangement of Kṛṣṇa that we have this verse on the thirty-first of December. In of course India different states have different New Years day, and some observe this as the New Years day, and some observe the Makara-saṅkrānti as a pongal. And they have the pongal day, and some observe the Paila Vaiśākh, the first day of Vaiśākh, in which the second to the last day is the Narasiṁha-caturdaśī. And there is lot of holy things that Vaiśākh month is considered a sacred month.

So, I usually go to Chennai on Ratha-yātrā day, holded on the day of Makara-saṅkrānti which is known as pongal, and today if we take it as tomorrows new year, and that Pongal is new Year, and today is Bhogi. Means the last day of the year. So everybody takes out some old clothes, old mats. You are from Chennai right? You know this. Who is here from Tamil Nadu? Anyone? So, they burned some grass mats and old clothes.

It is mentioned that the year is gone, you burn it. So, tomorrow is day of new year, you can eat pongal. Pongal – they have two kinds of Pongal. One is salty and one is sweet. So, actually it is a favorite for me. Every year I go, I get Pongal, for me it is a favorite. It is a kind of khichadi without turmeric, and they use black paper and ghee. So, it is a salty, but in the sweet one they use jaggery, and rice, it is like a sweet khichadi. I don’t know tomorrow you can make. That is traditional. You hold on to Pongal which is like fourteenth January.

But in America this is the Pongal. Tomorrow is like the Pongal day. The first of January. The day is like a Bhogi. So, today just like Rahūgaṇa. He left behind his bodily conception. leave behind our mayas, our contaminations of bodily conceptions. Actually in the Skanda Purāṇa it states that you should chant the names of Ha and Ri…

Can you chant that?

Ha ri… ha ri ha ri ha ri ha ri

You see, by chanting that Kṛṣṇa steals for you. Some of you look worried. He steals away all your misfortune, your contaminations, your dirty things in your mind. Is that alright?

So, don’t worry, He doesn’t steal what you need. He steals away all the garbage. So,

Hari… Hari… Hari.

So, this is the day you can chant Haribol. And so like everybody in Tamil Nadu, in most of places, the day before the New Year’s day, they think that today I should purify myself, tomorrow is the New Year’s day, I shall prepare my mind. I think that in America usually people get drunk. They celebrate the new year is coming by being in the mode of ignorance. It is unfortunate. But I don’t think that is the tradition. But that has become a tradition now. In many places they stay up till midnight, and they watch countdown 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2,1  It is the new year, and everybody hugs each other etc etc.

So, I was this year for the past two years I was in Australia at that time, and past twenty years before my sickness I would go to Sydney. So, in Sydney they have very big fireworks in the harbor. So, they have two fireworks, one at nine, for the women and kiddies, and one at midnight which is a big one for everybody else. So, we do harināma through all the crowds and people, and watch the nine O clock fireworks, and then we go back, because after that it gets too wild. All the Aussies get completed intoxicated and wild. Before that on the New Years eve we used to go to Byron Bay, we would have the Ratha-yātrā, and Byron Bay is like an alternative place. You don’t have that Ratha-yātrā anymore but they used to have. And they have laws that no McDonnel’s, no big chains are allowed in the city, and no drinking on the streets. So, of course, people managed to put the liquors in other containers. Officially there is no liquor, no drinking, So, they have to go to the taverns, get intoxicated and come out. They still manage to get intoxicated, but at least there was no public drinking allowed.

So, they are having a rise in the street before the Ratha-yātrā. So, they ask us to do Ratha-yātrā, and when we do Ratha-yātrā there, it was somehow it was like cleaning the carbon rod in the nuclear reactor, it calms the people down, and they have no more riots as long as we were doing Ratha-yātrā. So, Prabhaviṣṇu Swami, Rāmāya Swami, and many other Swami and maybe some other Swamis and myself, we take turns leading, and we had to be surrounded by some brahmacārīs because the local ladies they wanted to like embrace some I don’t know it is not our custom as a sannyāsī to embrace. So, they would come and pull the ratha, and Jagannātha they had a lit by strobe lights. It was kind of psychedelic Jagannātha, I don’t know. Hope Jagannātha didn’t take any offence.

There had red light, blue light, strobe lights but there is loud kirtan and very big Lord Chaitanya maybe, twenty five, thirty feet. This I haven’t seen anywhere else. You have hear in your Ratha-yātrā? A big Lord Caitanya?

It is unique. But here you have three rathas, there you have only one ratha.

So, one lady she came up, and so many people were dancing on the streets, and they really like, there is nothing else to do maybe. But they very much enjoyed the Ratha-yātrā and the kirtan.

And one lady said, “Thank you, thank you very much. If it wasn’t for you, I would be just another drunken lady in the street. But because of you I feel somehow spiritually like my life has a meaning and a purpose, and I am really bringing in the New year in the right mood.”

So, there were many people who they appreciated during the Ratha-yātrā. Lets see new years eve.

One year I went to Auckland, New Zealand, and we did a harināma.

I heard that you did harināma. Tonight there will be harināma. That’s why I am giving you morning class.

Here I asked whether there is a specific place where they do the New year’s like in New Year you go to times square or in Atlanta they go downtown and preach the street. They have a big ball that falls at midnight, and everybody they rejoice new year. I mean chewing the chewed. Every year is new year you know.

In the in South India on the Pongal day, they all put this Rangoli in front of their house, and today all the streets are covered with smoke, because the people are burning some old stuff. Out with the old, bring in new.

In America the custom is to make New Year’s resolutions. What can you do the next year, what your goals are? That’s a good thing. You can have Kṛṣṇa conscious goals. What you want to the next year.

King Rahūgaṇa after hearing the teachings of Jaḍa Bharata just like he was a new person. So many illusions had been cut from his life, and now he wanted to like new direction. So, like that today is the day we can cut our illusions, we can think what we are going to do the next year, how we are going to be different, how we are going to be more Kṛṣṇa conscious, how we are going to take more shelter of Guru and Kṛṣṇa. So, here it is said, taking shelter of the servant of the servant. That’s also interesting because usually we think, Ok, we will take shelter of Kṛṣṇa or take shelter of some great some great ācārya. But here we are seeing the servant of the servant.

Even though we may not take get the opportunity to take shelter of a great ācārya, if we can take shelter of one of his servants, then that is also enough to transfer us to Kṛṣṇa Loka.

What you Bhagavad-gītā, are you are on internet?

Which address? So which address

No, you entered in some name. Īśvara Purī or in case somebody wants to write a question, I want to know what name they should look for, right? Īśvara Purī or Bhagavad-gītā?

It is a very simple question. So, what is his address?

Guru Mahārāja, I am speaking about pastimes.

If anybody is not looking for live U.S.A or L.A. live, U.S.A., you are going to write in a question, look at skype for Guru Mahārāja.

Of course he is writing in Spanish, so don’t get

Yeah, anyway, you got some more time.

That’s ok. I don’t want to be distracted so much.

Ok, ok pull it.

I was thinking about the pastime.

Surf my mind.

Yeah. This is also a version.

I think that it is the third or fourth canto that states that if you take that’s maybe the sixth chapter where what’s his name?

Durvāsā Muni, he was approaching Viṣṇu to save him from the Sudarśana Cakra. So, there the Lord, he stated that I am under the control of my pure devotees. Because of their love for me I shall submit myself to them. So, if you want to be forgiven, you want to go to the to Ambarīṣa Mahārāja and beg his forgiveness. So, there he also says, “the servant of the servant.” Not only the devotees, but his servants.

So, in ISKCON we are all trying to be servants of Śrīla Prabhupāda. At least the servant of his servants, and in this way we can also achieve pure devotional service, we can get back to the spiritual world. This is possible for us because of the mercy of the Lord.

So, there was once a new pastime for you tonight.

That after Lord Caitanya left, he for some time, the son of Nityānanda, Bīr Kṛṣṇa… Bīr Candra dāsa, he was in charge of the sampradāya, and so he went to one there is a place in Bardhwan, there is a associate there, his name is Ajñāna dāsa, but there was also one disciple who was like a disciple of a disciple of one of the associates of Lord Caitanya. So, his name was Gopāl Cakravartī or something like that. But he his guru wasn’t so famous. Like his guru’s guru was really famous. He was a direct associate of Lord Caitanya.

So, in order to like out of a desire for pratiṣṭhā, some name and fame, he claimed to be disciple of the associate, and he like jumped over his guru. He wouldn’t give the credit to his guru. So, because of that Bīr Candra Mahārāja, he Bīr Candra Prabhu, he said that this person is an offender. He got the mercy from that associate through his disciple, but he doesn’t recognize his own guru. He jumps over and claims to be the disciple of the param-guru. That’s like some people may claim to be Prabhupāda direct disciple when they are not. They don’t want to give credit to their guru.

I think that you call that as Ṛtvik or something. Anyway.

Whatever be the name, this is not a new thing, this was also existing four hundred years ago. So, Bīr Candra Prabhu, he ex-communicated this devotee, he said to Śrīnivāsa Ācārya, that you take down my dictation, that I say, because this devotee is jumping over his guru, that he doesn’t give credit that how he got the mercy, therefore no one should see his face again, no one should associate with him, he is out of our association. So long as he takes this mentality. And so this was written down in the exact wording of his ex-communication. Always is there in some ancient historical books, and it was there on a carving.

So, he went to village with our safari, so that was a heavy thing. I didn’t know that. I mean in the G.B.C occasionally two or three cases, I think ex-communicate to someone, our Prabhupāda, he ex-communicated Nitāi dāsa, said no one should associate with him, because Nitāi had gone out and taken re-initiation from someone in Vṛndāvana.

Actually Vṛndāvana can be a bit dangerous. Also Māyāpur to some extent, but in Vṛndāvana there are so any bābājīs and gosāis and paṇḍitas, and they are all, “your sampradāya is not good, we have the accurate sampradāya” like this they offer. You come here, we will give you re-initiation. So, it is very dangerous place, if you visit to this other paṇḍitas, what you call them. It is very easy to say, your sampradāya is not good, our sampradāya is good. They can make any claim they want, we have our sampradāya.

See, Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, he finalized his sampradāya for his spiritual followers that, he added it a bit, but it is called the Bhāgavata-sampradāya. So, we have faith in Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, we follow his sampradāya that he gave. I don’t want to go too much into discussing that now, but if you want I can discuss it later. So, this ex-communication was also done by Bīr Candra Prabhu who was the incarnation of the Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. So, we went to see these different holy places. Also the holy place, the samādhi of the Kāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa. Kāla Kṛṣṇa – he was the personal secretary of Lord Caitanya, but when he was South India he got captured by some gypsies, and somehow he was drugged, and somehow in the drugged state they used some they used sex to bind the people. So, they send some of their woman to him, and he fell down like that.

So, he was very embarrassed, he didn’t know what to do.

Lord Caitanya came and pulled him by the śikhā and pulled him out of the place. Then they attacked Lord Caitanya but their weapons were sucked out of their hands, flew in the air and fell on their heads.

So, when Lord Caitanya got back to Jagannātha Purī, he didn’t say anything upto that time, maybe years went by, finally when he got back, he said, this Kāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa, he had a fall down. So, I shouldn’t really have him as my personal secretary anymore, I don’t want him to do the personal service. So, he was devastated

Then Nityānanda and some other devotees discussed what to do. If he stays here, he won’t be able to serve Lord Caitanya. He will be very depressed. So, let’s send him back to Bengal, he can tell all the pastimes that Lord Caitanya did for the six years he was travelling in South India. So, Nityānanda went to ask permission to send Kāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa back to Bengal. He went to Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya said, “Listen!” Nityānanda said, we want to send someone to Bengal. You are going to say who. Ok, whatever you decide it is final. I agree with you. I don’t need hear any details. You do the needful.

So, Kāla Kṛṣṇa would send back to Bengal. Later Nityānanda was also engaged him as one of the gurus. He was with Kāla Kṛṣṇa. He had also the samādhi of his disciple. So, although he had some fall down, he was accepted later by Lord Nityānanda as a guru, and he was engaged. So, we saw his temple also. So, Kāla Kṛṣṇa dāsa and his disciple samādhi is there. I didn’t look it up particularly, but I don’t think that he would be a guru unless Nityānanda had approved of him.

So, it was very interesting to see kind of these holy places which showed kind of in-depth display of the philosophy that we don’t normally get.

So, today in this verse it says how hearing from the disciple of the guru, of Kṛṣṇa is also sufficient to deliver one. This should eradicate the doubts that somebody has. Even if we don’t, of course we all read now Śrīla Prabhupāda’s books, we have his tapes, we have his videos. So, we do get his association, and we accept him as everybody’s primary śikṣā-guru.

But even if we take initiation, one of his disciples, or one of his disciple’s disciple’s disciple is still considered as sufficient to take him back to Godhead. And we shouldn’t have that any doubt in that. This verse also confirms that. I don’t know why in particular it says disciple’s disciple, but it says that. So, you take it as the final word of the Lord.

So, if there is any questions? Ok.

How do we associate?

With great care. Because we also don’t want to be taken away. So, sometimes we are respectful to the others sampradāyabut we don’t want to also be bewildered. So, you should listen to such people. You just say Hare Kṛṣṇa, you can be partial to them but don’t get into any intimate talks, unless they are very senior devotee.

Just like I was sent by Prabhupāda in some occasions to get back devotees who are reinitiated outside, but then I had to be cared by. In such cases sometimes the guru wants to talk to you, and so one time guru says, You don’t really have to follow Prabhupāda. You do whatever you feel is good. But I said, Well, Prabhupāda taught us that he read in Bhaktivinoda’s literature that it is better to die and not carry out the order of the guru. Then that guru told, get up, get up, he rejected me. Which I was very happy, he rejected me. So, I was sometimes either by the G.B.C or by Prabhupāda sent to rescue some devotees, but it is a bit touchy because you try to say, You see, your guru didn’t tell you everything.

That’s how they start out.

Then they said, Really, I know what he didn’t tell you. They don’t say the guru doesn’t know, they say, he didn’t tell you. But I will tell you. But then when you listen to what he tells you, then you are sucked into it. They never say, Oh your guru didn’t know. He may start getting offensive. So, it is very dangerous.

So, unless one has a very strong faith and is very careful, it is quite dangerous to associate with people who have left our sampradāya. Why should they leave?

We had I mean, I was asked by Prabhupāda to try to unite the Saraswat family. So, I met the Saraswat Gauḍīya association and I had the blessings from Prabhupāda’s godbrothers like Pramoda Purī and Bhakti Vaibhava Purī and others.

So, we got everybody agreed that we should not reinitiate any disciples from one another

Ok śikṣā-guru is ok, but not re-initiation.

The only one who didn’t agree to that who wasn’t there. In the end… not mentioned the names. So, he was there, so, but  come, I will respect…

So, I had to be very respectful to all the Vaiṣṇavas. But everyone agreed that this type of like reinitiating taking over is not at all proper activity. It is very offensive to the other branch of the sampradāya.

So, I don’t know how they got to another branch. Of course, if they had a fallen guru and they went out maybe still they should, still they should take from the same sampradāya.

Then will be some cases where they are not so offensive.

So, I cannot say, each particular Each person is different.

Like some people they came out they got reinitiated and then they came back, and they said, we want to be with ISKCON, but we don’t know what we are getting into. All of a sudden we were made to sit down, and we were reinitiated. And we didn’t know. We were reinitiated first.

So, I met also people like that. One person was under my shelter and took initiation from other guru. And then came to see me in Ratha-yātrā in Amsterdam at the Down? and he fell down, said, “I made the biggest mistake in my life. I took initiation outside. I was under your shelter. Please forgive me. I just want to come back to ISKCON. He was like

Because other people get cheap initiation, but they had no infrastructure, they don’t care, once initiated they don’t care about you anymore.

So, it is a very dangerous thing. I don’t know exactly what But there is some people like that as I said are not so they actually want to come back to ISKCON.

So, depending on who they are, we deal with them. But generally we are just cordial, ok they are Vaiṣṇavas. Ok. But we don’t want to hear from them. They want to hear from us. That’s another thing. We don’t want to hear from them at all in that situation.

Any question?

What’s your name?

Karunā?

Question: Thank you for your explanation about other sampradāyas, not being so influenced. I had a friend who had made the argument that in the Western culture excuse me we are very dogmatic because we have like the kind of Judeo-Christian background of being very chaste to Jesus Christ, and when our approach to religion tends to be very linear.

And then in India the culture is so completely different because it is very broad. There is very broad spectrum of all different kinds of sects dharmas and so there are different kinds of people living side by side everywhere, day to day, and they all respect one other and respect one another’s religious beliefs and all that. And this person uses this argument that we should be tolerant of all the other kinds of Vaiṣṇavas and intermix with them and be free like that.

So, I am just wondering if that argument kind of swayed me. So, I am wondering what you would say about that.

Jayapatākā Swami: Prabhupāda said upto now I had to keep it separate because in Vṛndāvana there is the bābājīs and the gosvāmīs, they basically wanted to destroy ISKCON, and then in Māyāpur there is the Godbrothers. They are against ISKCON. But in the future you know I would like to be more open to them if they don’t destroy us.

So, he indicated that out of the self-defense he had to be a little protective, but he wanted to

So, we were doing this bhakti… this Saraswat Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava association, and we were just at the point of registering it.

Everyone All the Gauḍīya Maṭhas, ISKCON except were had agreed to the instructions. Then something came up.

The public works department came in, they wanted to all of us, we wanted to get the houses of prostitutes and the things out of Māyāpur, but somehow the map which was made had taken out some of the Gauḍīya maṭhas’s walls, ISKCON wall. So, they thought that we had conspired against them. We also lost we made a new map but we didn’t know about it.

So, we were like two three years now. ISKCON has has been meeting with them, but, Recently we approached some of the swamis in one of the temples, that if I write a letter, explaining the things, they will they will take us around, and they will try to get us all living together again.

So, we are trying to take some initiative. They are actually now more afraid of ISKCON than we are of them, because they think that ISKCON is so big, they have five hundred, six hundred branches all over the world and they are a little apprehensive. So, our idea is that we should show mutual respect, and we did some things like we do during the Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura appearance day and Bhaktivinoda appearance day.

So, we saw that in Māyāpur. Temples they don’t initiate ISKCON devotees.

They got initiated by Govinda Sundar. What’s the name?

Bhakti Sundar Govinda Mahārāja

But he said, this was one

I didn’t know. He claimed he didn’t know.

So, all this other temples they said they don’t initiate ISKCON devotee, they did in the past, it was, they claimed that they didn’t know and they won’t do it in the future. So, on that basis that they respected Prabhupāda, they would ISKCON’s initiation

Why don’t you associate?

We do associate on some level, but the problem is that some people say this, but then those very people were in ISKCON, and now they have gone out and took some re-initiation

So, it is touchy. I associate with the actual heads of the different maṭhas and they give very much respect, even the fact that I am sick and am I still preaching, they respect, but so, this ISKCON people who have gone out. They claim that you know but our point is that there shouldn’t be any re-initiation.

We can respect all the other maṭhas and all the other Vaiṣṇavas, why not?

But if they reinitiate our people, that means at least they don’t respect us. So, it is not there is like several maṭhas were banned, and certain other maṭhas because of their association because Only ISKCON devotees of those maṭhas reinitiate, but they are like renegades, they give reinitiation to everybody, even Bon Mahārāja’s disciples and

So, there is this problem that exists that some of the persons may claim that they are the messiah whatever, they are the anointed, everybody should take initiation from them, and they reinitiate anybody.

ISKCON, Bon Mahārāja, any other Gauḍīya maṭhas.

So, everybody can hold it. What is with you, what is wrong with you, why do have this claim?

So, they not only keep a distance in ISKCON but by many Gauḍīya maṭhas.

I don’t want to mention any names here probably, but you know who I am talking about.

So, in principle we don’t mind associating with the Vaiṣṇavas.

We would like to do that, but not with the people who are at war with us, taking our people and reinitiating them. But we can’t give alternative because they don’t follow the basic etiquette.

The basic etiquette is that they should respect our initiation. And there is how many like in America there is like two hundred fifty million people. We are few devotees.

So, there are so many millions of people, they can be devotees. We should be The whole world is there. Let us all work together and make devotees. But stealing from one another. Neither I don’t think ISKCON they can accuse. We can take their devotees and reinitiate them. Similarly, they shouldn’t do the same for ISKCON. If they want there are hundreds and millions of people that are not devotees. Only a few handful, one or two million devotees.

So, that’s only problem, but otherwise we are ok.

But here you know like in America, also these groups are ex-ISKCON devotees. So, therefore it is too difficult to associate.

If like in Māyāpur, where we have the original maṭhas, we do associate. We do attend programs.

They come to ISKCON and we go to them. We do.

But here because they were stealing from ISKCON in some cases, that’s why we got a little bit it is a sensitive issue.

If they promise not do it anymore and they apologize.

If ISKCON people took the blessings from their guru I really have to take this guru.

Ok, there is a way to do it. Like one time there was one disciple of some other guru, came to Prabhupāda, and asked him for initiation. He said, you are initiated by a bonafide Vaiṣṇava. If you get a letter from him that I should initiate you, then I will do it. Otherwise I won’t do it, because I respect your guru, he is a Vaiṣṇava.

So, of course that person never came back.

I don’t think it is so easy to get a letter.

You know that was the system, like Prabhupāda, he never reinitiated people from other maṭhas.

So, we have this problem. If we would associate I am sure if we more openly associate and we show mutual respect but they want respect from us, but they want to give us some respect.

That’s a sensitive issue. So,

I do give class in the quarters you are staying in the evening. Because here there is a lot of and I do answer questions. So, we can discuss

I don’t want to stop the devotees, we have to go out on saṅkīrtana and do the service now.

Hare Kṛṣṇa. I hope, I don’t know if I over-extend my time

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