19900115 Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.12.39

The following is a class given by HH Jayapatākā Swami on January 15^th 1990 in Madras, India. The class begins with the reading from the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.12.39.

itihāsa-purāṇāni
pañcamaṁ vedam īśvaraḥ
sarvebhya eva vaktrebhyaḥ
sasṛje sarva-darśanaḥ

Translation: Then he created the fifth Veda—the Purāṇas and the histories—from all his mouths, since he could see all the past, present and future.

Purport: There are histories of particular countries and nations and of the world, but the Purāṇas are the histories of the universe, not only in one millennium but in many kalpas. Brahmā has knowledge of those historical facts, and therefore all the purāṇas are histories. As originally composed by Brahmā, they are part of the Vedas and are called the fifth Veda.

Thus ends the Bhaktivedanta Swami translation and purport to text 39, chapter 12, Canto 3 of the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam in the matter of ‘Creation of the Kumāras and others’.

Jayapatākā Swami: There is certain sect of Hinduism that only wants to accept the original Vedas. They don’t want to accept the Purāṇas, Mahābhārata Rāmāyaṇa. But actually, here, it is confirmed that the Purāṇas are part of Vedic literatures. They should be known as the fifth Veda, Pañcama-veda, ‘pañcamaṁ vedam’. This has the Ṛg, Yajur, Sāma and Atharva Veda, known as the four Vedas. So the Itihāsas, the Purāṇas, they are the fifth Veda, Pañcama-veda. So, the information given in the Vedas, specifically the fifth Veda, the Purāṇas, by giving the history of the entire universe, they are actually giving us so many instructions. Within these histories, there are the conversations between great souls. There are the pastimes of historical situations which are actually landmark situations in the universe. The election of some democratic head of state, and then their subsequent loss of popular support and replacing by another head of state, this type of transient information would not clutter the valuable pages of the fifth Veda, like they clutter the daily newspapers. The Vedas, especially the Purāṇas, they are giving us the history of the universe of the real important occurrences.

Why Bali Mahārāja’s defeat of the victory over the demigods, their defeat was featured? Not just because it was an important dialogue and the asuras defeated the devas. But because the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Viṣṇu, appeared in the form of Vāmanadeva and gave Bali Mahārāja His mercy. Bali Mahārāja surrendered to Vāmanadeva, and in reciprocation, Vāmanadeva also became his doorkeeper, became his guard! Actually, Bali Mahārāja was quite proud that he had conquered the whole universe. So when the Vāmanadeva came and asked for bhikṣā, then Bali said, “Yes, you can have whatever you want.”

He (Kṛṣṇa) said, “I only want three steps of land. Whatever I can take in three steps, three paces, that’s all I want.”

“Why don’t you take something more valuable. What is three steps? Nothing.” He thinks how much can someone step on? About three meters maximum.

He said, “No that’s all I want. Just give me three steps.”

“It’s alright… you can have it.”

Then Śukrācārya, he says, “No! Don’t give it to him. You are being fooled! This is not an ordinary brāhmaṇa. This is Viṣṇu. What He can do in three steps, it’s inconceivable. You take back your word. You just say you are very sorry but you told a lie. You can’t give it. Finished.”

He (Bali) says, “How can I tell a lie?”

“You see sometimes you can also tell a lie, why not? If it’s a life and death situation, you may have to tell a lie. If it is to save all your property. He gave some morality instructions, when you can lie. “So, you’re going to lose everything. You just told Viṣṇu you will give Him three steps of land. I tell you, in three steps you won’t be able to do it. So, you better just say you lied. Forget it.”

So, Bali Mahārāja thought, “You told me all my life I should worship Viṣṇu. Everyday I’m doing yajña for Viṣṇu. Now you are telling me I should make myself a liar and say ‘No I won’t give you’. If He is not Viṣṇu, why should I lie? And if it is Viṣṇu, and He takes everything, then let Him take whatever He wants. But if He is Viṣṇu, then He is my worshipable object, my Lord. Then I should also not lie to Him. You are telling me to reject Him that he is Viṣṇu. So, I reject you.”

Guru is after all representing the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When he goes against the Lord, he is no longer qualified. He is no longer guru. If an ambassador goes against his own country, he is no longer an ambassador. He is a traitor. He loses his credentials. So, all these histories are there. You all know. These are very well-known histories. Because so much spiritual instruction is given. Then of course Vāmanadeva expanded himself and became Trivikrama. In one step He covered the whole planet, the whole lower region. One step the whole upper region of the universe. Breaking through the edge of the universe the Ganges came in. Without Trivikrama pastimes, Bali Mahārāja pastimes, the Ganges… how would she have come into this world? Such an important historical fact is there, historical account.

So then Viṣṇu told Bali, “In three steps I’ve taken everything. The whole lower and upper regions. So, where do I put my third step?”

So, then Bali Mahārāja said, “Alright, now I have only one place left I can give you, you put it here on my head. You have taken everything I own, now you take me. You take my body, you take myself. I belong to you now.” So the third step, He put on Bali Mahārāja’s head. So, in this way Bali Mahārāja, he was just tied up like a common thief. Now he was the property of Viṣṇu. But because he gave himself to Viṣṇu, then in reciprocation, because Kṛṣṇa says in Gītā (4.11) - ye yathā māṁ prapadyante tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham. According to how the devotee is approaching Him and worshipping Him, He reciprocates in the same way. So therefore, in turn He also give himself to Bali Mahārāja. He stayed with Bali Mahārāja.

So, this type of historical accounts are given in the Purāṇas. These are really important occurrences in the history of the universe. So, the Purāṇas are being maintained. They are not new; they are from the very creation. But previously Brahmā, He gave the history even before these things could happen. He already knew what was going to happen. Then now they are written down by Vyāsadeva. Otherwise before they were just spoken. So, these are very important information. The Purāṇas are divided into three sections. There is the goodness, passion and ignorance. Six - each mode of nature, in total eighteen Purāṇas. So, each Purāṇa is looking at things in a different perspective. So, we have to remember which Purāṇa we are reading to see which perspective. It’s like if you are looking from the perspective of a citizen of Tamil Nadu, you may say the topmost citizen is the chief minister. There is no one bigger than him. He is the top of Tamil Nadu. But if you are looking from all India basis, then you say there are so many chief ministers, but over everyone is the Prime minister.

So, like that different Purāṇas are looking from different view point. So that way you have to also see that the Purāṇas in accordance to the view point that they are taking. The mode of goodness, the Purāṇas in sattva-guṇa, they give the overall perspective from the view point of the Absolute Truth, from the view point of Viṣṇu. But of all the Purāṇas, the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam is considered the Amala Purāṇa, is considered the spotless Purāṇa. It has no touch of any other three modes, neither goodness, passion nor ignorance. It is purely transcendental. Actually, Śrīla Prabhupāda explained that the Lord takes different appearances. We know that just as He came as Vāmanadeva, he came as Rāmacandra. But for us in Kali-yuga, the Lord has come in the most important form. He has come in the form of Śrīmad Bhāgavatam. Actually the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam is the literary form of Kṛṣṇa. You find actually, like in Assam, there they worship the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam. They put the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam on the altar and perform ārati every day and do circumambulation. Śankaradeva, one Vaiṣṇava-ācārya, he said that his followers should worship the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam. For us the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam is also worshipable. In the Bhāgavata-māhātmyaṁ, it says wherever the Bhāgavatam is kept, all the devas are coming and offering their obeisances everyday. The Bhāgavatam is considered the literary form of Kṛṣṇa. It has risen like a sun when Kṛṣṇa left. purāṇārko 'dhunoditaḥ (ŚB. 1.3.43) Just like the sun, the Śrīmad Bhāgavata Mahā-purāṇa has risen. We read the Bhāgavatam every day. Bhāgavatam is an easy way to make association with the Lord.

Of course, in this age of Kali, the Lord also appears as the Nāma-rūpa, kali-kāle nāma rūpe avatāra. In the age of Kali, the Lord is also appearing as the Holy Name. Śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya rādhā-kṛṣṇa nahe anya. Balarāma haila Nitāi. Lord Caitanya is Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, Balarāma has come as Nityānanda Prabhu. So they came; and Lord Caitanya, He didn’t write. He said study the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, study the Bhagavad-gītā, chant:

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare,
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare.

So, these are the important instructions, to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and to study the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, Bhagavad-gītā. This is so important. Certain atheistic people, they don’t want that people should read because this is a transcendental book. It so clearly explains the position of Kṛṣṇa. So they say, “Well we don’t accept the Purāṇas.”

One-time Bhaktisiddhānta Ṭhākura, he was invited to speak in a Māyāvādī-sammelana. So, they invited him to come and speak, he agreed. But then some of the Māyāvādīs, they became afraid that He just talks on Bhagavad-gītā. “You can talk on so many scriptures. So, you should only speak on the four Vedas.” Then he won’t be able to bring in all the bhakti. So they sent message that he can speak only the Upaniṣads and the four Vedas.

Then he said, “Okay alright. I’ll speak on Upaniṣads. There is enough evidence in Upaniṣads about, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān, that everything is being maintained by the Supreme Lord (Svetāśvatara Upaniṣad) Parasya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate. So many ślokas are there.”

They went back and gave the message, “He accepts he will speak on Upaniṣads.” They thought many Upaniṣads he knows. There are 108 Upaniṣads, maybe he will definitely find something about bhakti. He should only speak only on the four Vedas. They went back and said, “So now we have decided that we are just going to be speaking only on four Vedas.”

He said, “Alright I accept. I’ll speak on the four Vedas”. Of course, even in the four Vedas, like the Ṛg Veda, it is said oṁ kṛṣṇaḥ saccidānanda ghanaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ ādi puruṣaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puruṣottamaḥ. Kṛṣṇa is the original person. Kṛṣṇa is the saccidānanda-vigrahaḥ. Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Ṛg Veda mantra is there. So many mantras are there. So, when the message came back that His Divine Grace Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura is accepting to speak on the four Vedas, they thought, “Now even four Vedas is difficult. In this also he finds some ways to push his bhakti. So better he just speaks on Vedānta-sūtra.” So, they send the final message to speak on the Vedānta-sūtra. He said “Alright, I’ll speak on the Vedānta-sūtra.” Then they thought, “You know, he is such a great scholar. Even Vedānta-sūtra he will establish. You better just cancel the program.” (laughter) So like this,m actually all the Vedas are leading one to Kṛṣṇa. Some, few verses are there but some are more. We accept every verse in the Vedas. But they have to be understood in the proper perspective, in the proper context.

Just like Prabhupāda gives the example, you can find in the Vedas, he says that if you touch any excrement of any living being, then you have to take a bath. But same time, it says that if you take cow dung, go-vara, you can bathe the deities with that. It is pure. Scripture says if you touch any bone, you have to bathe before you can worship the deity. But they say you can bathe the deity with the conch shell, śaṅkha. But śaṅkha is nothing but the bone of a sea animal. So, this contradiction is there. So, the general instruction is there, but some exception is also given. Yes, go-vara is pure. Śaṅkha is pure. So, we have to follow the Vedas in its entirety. May be ten places it is said you don’t touch the excrements, but in some places, it says but you can use go-vara for bathing. We accept. But we need, that’s why we need the guru-paraṁparā to explain how to apply the different instructions of the Vedas. Because sometimes the instructions are apparently contradictory. If someone, he wants to use his own logic and not follow the Vedas, then he creates a disturbance. Prabhupāda gave the example that if someone says, “Ohhh, so brāhmaṇa is most pure, so then we can use brāhmaṇa’s stool, brāhmaṇa excrement!” No, that is not accepted. No human being, even brāhmaṇa, you can never use his excrement. This is all to be kept far away. But cow dung – this is only pure, no other stool is pure. So, speculation and misinterpretation create a havoc, and this is why disciplic succession is given. Because someone can read the scripture and they can get some misinterpretation, they may not know how to apply it. In this way they create a confusion. So simultaneously, with the śāstras, is also the handing down of the scripture to the disciple succession. So, then he created the fifth Veda - the Purāṇas  and the histories from all his mouths with which he could see all past, present and future. Any questions?

Question: It is explained that in the beginning, when Brahmā creates, there was no population but it is also said that he created Svāyambhuva Manu?

Jayapātāka Swami: In the end of the day of Brahmā, when the universe is destroyed, that time all the jīvas enter into the body of Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu and they remain dormant there. There is a part in the Bhāgavatam where it mentions that Nārada Muni, at the end of a day of Brahmā, he was also inside the body of Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. But he remained conscious, he didn’t lose, forgetfulness. But others they were completely dismantled and brought down to the basic level of prārabdha state. So then, the time when Brahmā wakes up, he takes up some other planets. We find that sometime in the bottom of Garbhodaka ocean, some of the planets are kept in the night of Brahmā, so he can just lift out the planets and put them back into the orbit, and rearrange the universe according to his desire. He is the creator. So he is always creating, every day. Every day he wakes up and he creates the universe. And in the night, it gets destroyed by Lord Śiva. But we can understand that the great souls like the four Kumāras, Nārada Muni, Śiva, they are not… they are remaining conscious. Actually Śiva is greater than Brahma, but he appears as the son of Brahmā. Just like a līlā. So therefore he is respecting even the four Kumāras as his older brother. Bhavāgraja is one of the names of the Kumāras. The older brother of Bhava. Bhava means Śiva. Bhavāgraja.

Devotee: So Lord Śiva does not dissolve?

Jayapatākā Swami: Dissolve means... they don’t dissolve. Dissolve means like they disappear. Their bodies are there. The body is made from the material elements. Lord Śiva is not having material body. Śiva-tattva is a separate thing. You know that he is an expansion of Viṣṇu with some change, because of contact with the material nature. He is transformed like milk to yoghurt. So it is very difficult for us to understand Śiva-tattva. You know that he is in between jīva-tattva and Viṣṇu-tattva. But the jīva-tattva, they are covered by the eight elements. The three subtle and five gross. Those are all dissolved, the subtle elements. And this jīva, the ātmā, is inside the Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Because Nārada Muni was already liberated ātmā, he is muktātmā, so he also as an ātmā is inside Garbodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. But he did not merge. Neither did the individual ātmās merge. They were just dormant. They were unconscious or dormant. But Nārada Muni was conscious. So if Nārada Muni was conscious, we could assume that the four Kumāras would also be conscious. Other great sages and ṛṣīs of that level, liberated souls, they will also remain conscious. There will be a continuity. They will remember what happened in the previous day of Brahmā. But the other jīvas, they don’t know what happened in the previous day of Brahmā. The previous kalpa is beyond their scope of recollection. Because their mind, intelligence and false ego was totally dissolved and recreated again. There is some prārabdha-karma which is connected to the ātmā, which is in code form to show what was the previous action they did in the previous kalpa. Then on that basis of that code form, just like Nārada’s computer code, this coding is there. So then again they take their birth according to their old desire. Just some categories are there. The detailed karmas are not there. Just a show-in. In a new creation, he should start out animal, deva, this that whatever. Otherwise, he has a fresh slate. But he starts off from that position.

*some inaudible comments*

But madhyama-adhikārī also studies scriptures, although his study is not complete. Only the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī is very poor in knowledge. But madhyama is madhyama in knowledge. What was the question – the last part you said

Devotee: Is he considered perfect?

Question: He is also considered perfect. He is considered perfect, but he is considered unripe-perfect. He is like a mango. Mango is mango. But mango may be at different stages of being ripe. So fully ripened mango is like uttama-adhikārī. Little less ripe is the madhyama. Fully green mango is a kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. So madhyama-adhikārī means, it is already edible, but keep it little time and it will fully ripene. So, it is already perfected. The process of perfection is there. The madhyama-adhikārī remains in devotional service, naturally the ripening also continues. So, compared to someone in the material world, he is to be respected as also perfect. But his perfection is not as complete as the person who is uttama-adhikārī level. It is like perfect, more perfect and most perfect, that type. So you become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, already that is perfection. You somehow realize the summum-bonum. There are some people who think that if you worship a politician, that is perfection. They are totally off the track. If someone understands that,

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
(Bs. 5.1)

That Kṛṣṇa is the Parama-brahma, he is already perfect. Lord Caitanya said that anyone who chants Hare Kṛṣṇa is also perfect. But someone who is chanting, initiated, following all the sādhanā everything, is in the madhyama-adhikārī level, he is considered more perfect. That is the person we actually call ‘prabhu’, pay obeisances, respect. The other one, they believe in Viṣṇu, in our heart we respect them. But if they are not following clearly, we don’t associate very closely. Uttama-adhikārī is fully convinced, they don’t have any more doubts.

Devotee: Madhyama comes to level of prema-bhakti?

Jayapatākā Swami: I have never seen the two explained side by side like that. It’s different. I don’t know. Prema-bhakti means that they are already uttama-adhikārī, no doubt. There may be some explanation that at which level the person goes from madhyama to uttama, but I don’t know. I can’t recall. The whole thing is explained as either kanistha, madhyama or uttama. That is one type of definition. The other way bhakti is explained, starting from śraddhā, starting from anartha-nivṛtti, then bhajana-kriyā, satsaṅga, anartha-nivṛtti, bhajana-kriyā, then niṣṭhā, rucī, āsakti, bhāva, then prema. That is another separate way of describing. But just off hand, I don’t remember the two being matched up side by side. It may be there, but I don’t recall. But for sure whoever is in prema-bhakti is already liberated. Even emphasis has been given through out that what is actually uttama-adhikārī, what is madhyama. It is very practical understanding Rūpa Gosvāmī gave in the Nectar of Devotion. That uttama-adhikārī, madhyama, kaniṣṭha. Kaniṣṭha means, he believes in Kṛṣṇa but if someone tells him, “Actually why do you believe in Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is doing this and that…”, he may get so bewildered.

“Really?”

“Yeah. How is that?”

In this way he is like weak minded. He starts to doubt. But in his heart, he still thinks that maybe there is an answer. How could it be? Yeah… Kṛṣṇa is doing that? Uh huh. If it is the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, he gets bewildered.  Someone says that, “Oh Kṛṣṇa is stealing butter, he is a thief! How can you worship a thief?”

“Yeah, how can I worship a thief? Kṛṣṇa is God but how can be a thief.” But he actually doubts. That is kaniṣṭha. Very weak knowledge.

Madhyama means some will come up, “ Kṛṣṇa is a thief! How are you worshipping Kṛṣṇa who is stealing butter?

And he is thinking, “Yeah there is a point, but there must be an answer. Must be an answer! My Guru or the śāstra must explain. If Kṛṣṇa is God, there must be some reason.” He doesn’t doubt. But he doesn’t know the answer also. So, he is not able to answer that question. That is madhyama. But he doesn’t doubt. He knows that, “I will ask my guru, I will ask a Vaiṣṇava and I will find out. Answer must be there.”

Uttama-adhikārī – he knows the answer. “Kṛṣṇa is stealing? Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor of everything, why He has to steal! That He is doing a līlā to just give all the residents of Vṛndāvana something to talk about, and chase after Him and in this way, they are enjoying so much. But actually, He is not a thief, what He has to steal? He is the proprietor of everything!” So very practical way Rūpa Gosvāmī gave explanation. So, we cannot become of course. Prabhupāda even explained that is not something totally academic. It has to be given by the mercy of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa gives the intelligence to go back to him. dadāmi buddhi-yogaṁ taṁ yena mām upayānti te (Bg. 10.10). By our own endeavor we can become a madhyama-adhikārī, by Kṛṣṇa’s mercy one may become a uttama-Adhikārī. That is the point. But both madhyama and uttama, as he was mentioning, are considered different stages of perfection. Then there is another practical definition for the preacher. There are so many different definitions. So sometimes people use one definition to prove one point, or another definition. But the practical point is like that, as far as the preachers are concerned. So uttama-adhikārī, one who can answer the question, who’s never doubting in Kṛṣṇa, who is fixed in transcendental knowledge, he is the one who is qualified to be a guru under normal circumstances. Madhyama-adhikārī – he doesn’t know the answer, he gets bewildered, he doesn’t doubt though. But he doesn’t always know the answer. What to say? How this can be understood? So that may be madhyama. And someone who actually doubts, who gets bewildered in doubts – he is kaniṣṭha. Normally the uttama-adhikārī can be guru. He is never doubting. Sometimes, also the madhyama can be a guru if he is following the uttama-adhikārī guru. Even if kaniṣṭha very strictly follows, then Prabhupāda said he can also be a guru. But then, he has to strictly follow the previous ācāryas, uttama-adhikārī guru. Normally if he is a guru, he shouldn’t have any doubts isn’t it? If they have doubts, then why should one be a guru? Then his disciples are going to him to solve their doubts. When they go to him and the disciple asks such a question. The guru says, “Uh huh… yeah that’s something isn’t it?” (laughter) The disciples become more perplexed. “Even my guru is bewildered, so then where to go?” Isn’t it? That’s why it is said that if a person has a guru who is himself not fully convinced, then the disciples become bewildered. He can become perplexed. But Prabhupāda wanted all of his followers to be fully convinced of this philosophy and to spread this preaching. So we study the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, study the books that Śrīla Prabhupāda gave us and practice it in our daily lives. There is no reason why one cannot become fully convinced. Because devotional service is so systematic and so clear, that by the blessings of the previous ācāryas one can be fully convinced about this philosophy without any difficulty.

Hare Kṛṣṇa!

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