20071107 Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.7.27

The following is a lecture given by His Holiness Jayapatākā Swami Mahārāja on November 7^th, 2007 in Tucson, Arizona, USA. The lecture begins with the reading from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.7.27.

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.7.27

etad dvāro hi saṁsāro
guṇa-karma-nibandhanaḥ
ajñāna-mūlo ‘pārtho ’pi
puṁsaḥ svapna ivārpyate

Translation by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda: Through polluted intelligence one is subjected to the modes of nature, and thus one is conditioned by material existence. Like a dreaming state in which one falsely suffers, material existence, which is due to ignorance, must be considered unwanted and temporary.

<Translation of repetition>

Purported by Śrīla Prabhupāda: The unwanted condition of temporary life is called ignorance. One can very easily understand that the material body is temporary, for it is generated at a certain date and ends at a certain date, after undergoing the six kinds of change, namely birth, death, growth, maintenance, transformation and dwindling. This condition of the eternal soul is due to his ignorance, and although it is temporary, it is unwanted. Because of ignorance one is put into temporary bodies one after another. The spirit soul, however, does not need to enter such temporary bodies. He does so only due to his ignorance or his forgetfulness of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore in the human form of life, when one’s intelligence is developed, one should change his consciousness by trying to understand Kṛṣṇa. Then one can be liberated. This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (4.9), where the Lord says:

janma karma ca me divyam
evaṁ yo vetti tattvataḥ
tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām eti so ‘rjuna

“One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.” Unless one understands Kṛṣṇa and comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one must continue in material bondage. To end this conditional life, one must surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Indeed, that is demanded by the Supreme Lord. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66].

As advised by Mahārāja Ṛṣabhadeva, na sādhu manye yata ātmano ‘yam asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]. One must be intelligent enough to understand that although one’s body is temporary and will not endure for long, as long as one has a body he must undergo the pangs of material existence. Therefore, if by good association, by the instructions of a bona fide spiritual master, one takes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his conditional life of material existence is vanquished, and his original consciousness, known as Kṛṣṇa consciousness, is revived. When one is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he can realize that material existence, whether one is awake or dreaming, is nothing but a dream and has no factual value. This realization is possible by the grace of the Supreme Lord. This grace is also present in the form of the instructions of Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s mission is for everyone to engage in welfare activities to awaken the foolish living entity, especially in human society, so that he may come to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and benefit by liberation from conditional life.

In this connection, Śrīla Madhvācārya cites the following verses:

duḥkha-rūpo ‘pi saṁsāro
buddhi-pūrvam avāpyate
yathā svapne śiraś chedaṁ
svayaṁ kṛtvātmano vaśaḥ

tato duḥkham avāpyeta
tathā jāgarito ‘pi tu
jānann apy ātmano duḥkham
avaśas tu pravartate

One must realize that the material condition of life is full of distresses. One can realize this with purified intelligence. When one’s intelligence is purified, he can understand that unwanted, temporary, material life is just like a dream. Just as one suffers pain when his head is cut off in a dream, in ignorance one suffers not only while dreaming but also while awake. Without the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one continues in ignorance and is thus subjected to material distresses in various ways.

Thus ends the Bhaktivedanta Swami purport of Bhaktivedanda Swami translation and purport Canto 7, Chapter 7 Text 27 Śrīmad Bhāgavatam

* * *

Jayapatākā Swami: What Prahlāda learned in the womb this is a very interesting verse simply explained by Prahlāda to his fellow students that they were only five-year-old students. Now probably the university students would have a difficult, one trying to understand this one. But Prahlāda’s students were pretty sharp. Five, six years old, they could grasp it all. They started to do what? They started to chant.

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare

We are put into this dreaming state of Māyā where we are identifying with our bodies. Therefore, whatever the body experiences, we think it’s happening to us. Just like in a dream, one is subjected to different kinds of experiences.

But actually we wake up, we find nothing has changed. But simply went through suffering and went through maybe happiness, depending whatever the dream was, it was a good dream or a nightmare. Śrīla Prabhupāda said that sometimes the spiritual master suffers the karma that his disciples have kindly given to him or unkindly, depending. Sometimes it’s like a ride on a roller coaster through hell. They experience all kinds of weird things and even if you want to wake up, you can’t. It’s not like a dream, it’s like you’re there. So, he said that because of his disciples were not all following, sometimes he had to experience this kind of dreams which were meant to pay off the karma. Somehow, we get a token or all of the karma, whatever Kṛṣṇa wants. Either by suffering in the waking state or in the dreaming state.

So, like this, the dreams are a way, we can also suffer and enjoy some of our reactions. At the same time, it’s only a dream, nothing changed. So, like that it’s the ātmā doesn’t change. We go through so many births and so many different experiences. So, the analogy is used here, it’s like a dream, but when you’re in the dream you’re experiencing seems as real as anything else. So right now we’re in this material dream state within which there’s also a dream state. But if we are properly guided by a bona fide spiritual master, we follow the scriptures, then we shouldn’t be disturbed by the difficulties we face in this material life. Because it’s only a dream and part of the material life means you have to suffer. It was very interesting a couple phrases here in the purport, Prabhupāda said that you have to.

“One must realize that the material condition of life is full of distresses.” Has anybody here realize that? She didn’t yet already. How old are you? You have already realized to some extent. You raised your hand. Until we realize it. Then we get some experiences to help us to realize it. Without the mercy of the Supreme Personality, Godhead one continues in ignorance and thus subjected to material distresses in various ways. I was just in, Just. It was a month ago or so at Māyāpur, that time I went to see Nirguṇa Prabhu, who was my godbrother. I don’t know if you knew Nirguṇa. He was an active book distributor and very pleasant devotee. And he was taking some kind of alternative medicine for curing his cancer.

But he had a strange cancer that kind of wrapped around his spinal cord so they couldn’t operate on it because they feared that he would destroy his spinal cord. It was right behind his lungs. Had trouble breathing and different, very complicated situation. But that was the Rādhāṣṭamī to me. And so then they brought him over to Rādhārāṇī’s abhiṣeka, And although he couldn’t stand up on his own, there were some stronger devotees lifting him up. He performed the abhiṣeka just before I left. When I saw him, he said that, “Actually now I just realized that I am not going to make it, and I feel a big relief. There’s a big struggle trying to exist, but there is…” Janmāṣṭamī Prabhu called me up and told me that a few days ago when he just woke up in the morning and he started chanting and he had his hands in the air and he was chanting and Kūrma Prabhu was chanting for like seven hours. He was just smiling, you know, he’s like smiling and chanting for three hours with his hands in the air, lying down on his bed, then he left. (Jaya!) Usually in the hospital, people don’t die smiling. Don’t know what he was seeing or he must have been seeing something very nice.

I have a disciple who is… She was serving with her husband in a Soho restaurant in England, in London. And then she heard her father went into coma. I don’t know, it was a heart attack or a stroke or something. And then… So, she flew down to see her father who was in Buenos Aires. And he’s in the hospital in a coma. His mother and sister, maybe some other relatives were there when she entered the room. Like, everybody’s so stressed out because the father is in a coma and he’s dying. Don’t know what to do. You heard this. And then the sister… like started shouting at her, “You, you and your Hare Kṛṣṇa, all these things you’re doing. Now look at our father. He’s in a coma now. What can this do now? What’s going to save him and make this tummy, you know, in Spanish, shouting out.” “So, I just got here, let me see what I can.” So, then she took the Bhagavad-gītā and started reading it to her father and verses and translations.

Somehow the sister was looking and while she was reading and she said, “Mom, look at Dad’s smiling.” My mother said, “No, he hasn’t smiled for 10 years.” “Oh really?” “He’s smiling.” And then she looked at him, she said, “Oh, you know, Ama Mia and Holy Mary, he’s really smiling.” And then the nurses and doctors, if I ever saw somebody in coma smiling. But as soon as she would stop reading, then you know, his smile would… So, the nurse, the doctor, “We don’t know what’s happening. But if he’s smiling, he must be in a good place, you know? Must be.” So, then the mother, the sister, everybody who was before negative, they took turns in reading the Bhagavad-gītā, keep the father smiling. So like this, finally he also passed away smiling. And sometimes devotees survive, sometimes they don’t, we don’t, eventually we all do.

Okay, I understood it. So, part of the reality of this world. Everyone who is born is bound to die. Everyone who dies is bound to be reborn. Unless of course, we surrender to Kṛṣṇa. When we surrender to Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa takes us back to Him. I was thinking while I was reading this, I was making a great movie. And here there’s people who misbehave. They’re put into some kind of a dream state perpetually. But what their dreams are to be monitored by the supervisors. And when they actually become rehabilitated, then they’re woken up. That’s basically. That’s what’s happening to us. But then here we are in this dream state, and we’re exiled from the spiritual world.

But if we wake up and start to perform our devotional service, and we start to serve guru and Kṛṣṇa, then the whole conditional life of maternal existence is vanquished and we get transferred back to our eternal life. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He came down very mercifully to deliver all of us. Making devotional service as easy as it’s more easy than it’s ever been, says Govinda Dāsa, kevala ānanda-kāṇḍa – simply giving us the blissful part. So, by some previous yugas, people doing deity worship, we need a particular bent of mind. fire yajñas and meditation and tapasyas. Devotional service has been a bit difficult, relatively speaking. But what to speak of other kinds of yoga, and it’s really tough all the way – aṣṭāṅga-yoga. So here in this yuga some places it says, how Kali-yuga is the worst place? Because of so much suffering. I was reading recently Mother Teresa, when she saw so much suffering in the world, she actually started to doubt whether there’s really… How can there be a God? How can they allow people to suffer so much? Which is kind of shocking because somebody was being proposed to be a saint and she was having doubts, “Whether there’s a really God?” But she saw some pretty heavy suffering. So maybe it was pretty emotionally hard on it. But in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we understand that the Kṛṣṇa creates the material world, but He allows it to run an automatic gear through the modes of karma. He only intervenes sometimes, and He can intervene anytime. But He intervenes usually with His devotees. I can say He says, other people, if they’re not devotees, and why intervene? He reciprocates. They ignore Him. He ignores them.

In the ninth chapter, Bhagavad-gītā that I explained, although he creates the material world, although everything is under His control, but although He... Sometimes He’s without it, He’s outside of it at the same time. Sometimes He goes in it, but He doesn’t. He’s not part of it. So, like this is very confusing. What is the position? I heard one Rabbi wrote a book that, you know, Why do bad things happen to good people? Then he had the speculation that God’s a good guy and He made him into a world. But then He kind of messed up and it went out of control. And it’s like He doesn’t really have any control over it. He’s not like all powerful. He’s just. But actually, maybe that way for Lord Brahmā to some extent.

Because sometimes things get so messed up in the universe that Viṣṇu has to come down and straighten everything out. There’s this pastime about some heavy wars in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Padma Purāṇa is also some wars. It’s a story about the Mura demon from where Kṛṣṇa got the name Murāri that He.... I don’t remember. I don’t know if I read how he got his powers. Usually do some extreme tapasyas and get some blessings. But he had so many mystical powers. That was quite amazing. He was very well aware of the difference between the ātmā and the soul. I mean, the soul and the body. But he was very much an inimical to Viṣṇu. So, he became the leader of the demons. And there was a huge interstellar war, between the devas, who probably in Kṛṣṇa parlance, you call as angels, material angels, different categories of angels.

Pārṣadās are the spiritual ones, but between the devas and the demons. And Mura used his mystical powers so that the devas couldn’t tell who was the demon and who was the deva. He made all the demons look like angels. So all of a sudden, this fellow angel, fellow deva, would attack you. And, you know, you say you don’t know. Who do you attack? Sometimes they would attack, no, I am on your side. So, it was like completely. How can you fight if you don’t know who is your enemy? That’s kind of what is happening in Iraq now, I guess. People walk down the street and all of a sudden they get blown up because somebody just pushes the landmine button or whatever. You don’t know. It’s like a guerrilla war zone, terrorism. Don’t know who is your enemy and who is your friend. Sometimes innocent people get killed.

But this was a war zone, complete battle. But the demons knew who the devas were. But the devas couldn’t tell who the demons were. So, the devas were getting defeated. So, then Skanda, Murugan, who is the general of the devas, he was like, he was getting confused what to do. So, I think he prayed to Brahmā to help out, they need, “How can they fight like this?”

So by Brahmā’s prayer then Kṛṣṇa, Viṣṇu, He came into that flew in on Garuḍa and with his Sudarśana cakra illuminating brilliant light. Then it was like everybody got exposed, who is who. And then the devas could, you know, get into fighting. Normally the devas can win, but this was like so many mystical powers the Mura demon had that he was tipping the balance on the side of the demons.

Once the devas with Viṣṇu came in, then things started to balance out. So, then the Mura demon, he came up with a new plot since Viṣṇu had neutralized his illusions. So, then he tried another illusion. He came in disguised as Śiva, who is the father of Murugan, of Skanda. And he challenged Viṣṇu, started throwing weapons at Viṣṇu. So, then Viṣṇu, this is just Mura demon in the disguise, in the form as if he’s Śiva. So, He shoots His Sudarśana cakra, chops off the head. So as the Sudarśana cakra is coming in that microsecond of time, Mura demon leaves the body. So it’s already dead. He creates a new illusion. Now he comes as Durgā, the wife of Śiva. And she is very angry. You have killed my husband, now I am going to kill you. So now Mura demon, even disguised as Durgā, attacks Viṣṇu again.

Viṣṇu says, “What is going on here?” Another, you know, illusion. And then chops off her head. But Mura demon leaves before the weapon comes so he doesn’t get killed. Then he enters into a subtle form and takes over the mind of Skanda. Maybe not to fully take over but like influence it, like be there like almost like haunting him and saying that your mother and father were just killed by Viṣṇu. So then even Skanda for a minute got bewildered and he’s like thinking that I have to do something to revenge my mother and father. So like this Mura was expert to create fights between, you know, like he was having the devas kill the devas because of previously. Now he was trying to get Murugan to attack Viṣṇu so that Murugan be killed.

It’d be an easy job to finish the rest of the demons or devas. But then somehow Brahmā came down and saved Murugan from attacking Viṣṇu and said, “This is all illusion of Mura. Look in Kailāsa. Use your powers. Look in Kailaśa. Your mother and father are there. They are not dead. This was all illusions by Mura.” He looks, “Oh, yeah, hi mom! Hi dad!” You know, this is amazing. That’s why the Mura demon was really tough guide. And finally, Viṣṇu, he had nowhere to hide, nowhere to go. That Viṣṇu finished him off. He was creating this huge interstellar wars. Some people, they have this attitude of, you know, very much inimical to God. This material world is for these people and the people who are doing things against the laws of God that naturally they have to suffer certain amount of karmas like this.

Viṣṇu sometimes intervenes, saves his devotees. But generally, things just going on, if we hadn’t intervened, then it would have been a big disaster in the universe. So, so for Prahlāda, He intervenes, save Prahlāda’s life. Personally, you have to be pretty special to get a personal intervention. Otherwise, he just kind of does it by remote control through some other agency. So we are locked into this dream state here in that material world, falsely suffering and sometimes falsely enjoying this material existence is putting so many big thinkers there. And this illusion. So somehow, we have the task to disseminate this knowledge. And  Kali’s priority is to somehow divert us one way or another or neutralize us so that we don’t spread this knowledge. Because this knowledge of the Bhāgavatam totally counteracts the effects of Kali. It makes Kali the best age.

If you know the science of the Bhāgavatam, you know, devotional service, you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, then Kali-yuga is a great time. You can make spiritual advancement very quickly, but if you’re not careful, you don’t follow the instructions of your spiritual master and scriptures, then Kali can also put somebody in illusion. Just like the Mura demon put so many people into illusion, we can forget what we’re really supposed to be doing. When Kṛṣṇa consciousness was at its peak 300 years ago, after the Six-Gosvāmī’s and all the ācāryas had preached then Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura said that Kali approached Śukrācārya, the guru of the demons, and said that, “You have to help me. My age is not getting off, this continues on. And then I won’t be able to do my thing in India at least and spread all over the world.”

So then Śukrācārya said, “Well, I owe one against Viṣṇu because when he took the form of a fly and went into the Kamaṇḍalu of Bali to block the water from coming out of his water pot, so that three drops of water had to hit the hand of Vāmanadeva and then he could make the gift. So to block it he took the form of a fly and blocked the sprout. Kamaṇḍalu’s have this little spout like a flower jug or something. And so then Viṣṇu took kuśa grass and popped him out from the water pot.” And while doing that, He poked out one of his eyes. So since then, just to remind Śukrācārya that he was misguiding his disciple, he was an un-bona fide guru. He’s not one of the bona fide sampradāyas, but he’s a brāhmiṇical guru. So he has one eye.

So he said, since he poked my eye out, I am going to get back him and I will disturb his movement. So, he incarnated as Rūpa Kavirāja and spread the sahajiyā-dharma, which is that you don’t have to practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or at least you clean. You don’t have to chant or preach. You just immediately enter into imagining that you’re one of the eternal associates. And then acting like a dramatic playback of that in your mind. And in this way, it seems like a shortcut. You can imagine your one of the mañjarīs or one of the cowherd boys or something. These are very esoteric books. So this is called sahajiyā. They were cheap. They make everything cheap. But it’s just an imagination. It’s not the real thing. It’s another dream state. Rationally, we should, we want to awaken that real love for Kṛṣṇa. We want to awaken what is, we want to realize what is our real relationship. But you can go in Vṛndāvana and some Bābājī will tell you, “I will tell you what your eternal relationship is with Kṛṣṇa.” And like this, he will just tell you that you’re this or you’re that. What’s the use of that? How do you know it’s true? We don’t want to be told about it. We want to realize it. We want to see Kṛṣṇa and see ourselves as a cowherd boy or a gopī or whatever we are and feel all those emotions and things that we’re supposed to feel in that eternal relationship. We don’t want to just have somebody. Okay? There was one guy who was told that he was a peacock, usually the Westerners, they always tell them śānta-rasa. I guess they figure, because we’re born in a western country, we do not deserve to be in a higher rasa or something. So, they found this devotee in the corner, flapping his arms. And then someone said, you know, “What you doing?” And then he said, “No, nothing, nothing.” They kept, you know, “What were you doing that day?” “You know, like some kind of new exercise, aerobics, or something. I don’t even have aerobics.” “But anyway, something, what’s your doing?” And then he finally revealed that he was told that his eternal rasa was a peacock. He was just like practicing. So, like this cheater and cheated. We don’t know what nirguṇa was experiencing. Maybe he was realizing a lot of things. They said just looking in the sky with a big smile on his face while he’s dying with cancer.

There was another person passed away, but now I can’t remember who. Little sleep deprived past couple of days, memory goes down where he literally when he was leaving, he said, he started saying, “Kṛṣṇa, you come for me.” And then he died. But Prabhupāda said, I can’t remember right now. Prabhupāda, Prabhupāda, who is that? Śrīla Prabhupāda came and took him back. So, while we’re in the dream, we have to come over here in this material world. This is our, they play out, we play out our duties. That’s why it’s important that we can play out our duties. Play out our Kṛṣṇa conscious duties for whatever āśrama happens to be. Whichever āśrama we take to fight this war with. Then we have to follow the rules of that āśrama. Someone may switch one āśrama to the next. Whatever āśrama we’re in. That means then we have to follow those rules.

So somebody is in the gṛhastha-āśrama, also have children, have husband, a wife. And they follow those rules. How to make their family Kṛṣṇa conscious, how to practice within that environment. Gṛhastha life is considered a responsible life. Like Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī mentions in the Saṁskāra-dīpikā. A lot of responsibilities also responsible to help the temples to survive. Then the brahmacārīs are considered what Prabhupāda said. They’re... What was it? Free, little free life. They don’t have so many responsibilities, so we give them spiritual things to do. But materially they don’t have so many responsibilities necessarily, so, like that different stages. Whatever phase we happen to be or āśrama, we’re in our material life, and we follow those rules, and we practice our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this way we can awaken our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We help other people to be Kṛṣṇa conscious. That also gives us a bonus. We benefit from whatever people we help achieve also benefit them spiritually.  
So, people identify with the material world because they have a polluted intelligence. So, we purify our intelligence, purify our mind, and naturally we will be able to see things as they are. Gradually, devotees start to, even before they realize that the self or realize Kṛṣṇa. They start to get realizations where they can see how the material world is working. They have a deeper, more profound understanding. So gradually the conditioning starts to reverse itself. They are able tolerate the sufferings and tolerate the enjoying. Suddenly you get intoxicated by enjoying. I remember that one disciple. He was very poor family. I don’t know. He was a very poor family. But somehow, he was distressed, and he joined in South America.

And then one relative, some rich uncle or somebody died and left him like $28,000 which was in South America like an orchid. But he thought, “Why do I have to stay in Kṛṣṇa consciousness? So many austerities now I am rich, I can enjoy.” So, he went out and tried to enjoy, spend all his money. All kinds of new friends came till his money was gone, totally burned out. Then he came back to the temple without any money. The devotees said, “Anyway, Kṛṣṇa is so merciful.” He doesn’t seem to learn, you know, to go somewhere like this. Material life sometimes can trick us with happiness. They know I can be happy. Our priority to be Kṛṣṇa conscious goes down. Then when we’re far from Kṛṣṇa, then Māyā, sometimes Kṛṣṇa’s mercy lets Māyā smash us. And that helps us to remember that, “What am I doing here?”

I was so happy, when I was a Kṛṣṇa conscious person. Now I am in Māyā. I am suffering like anything. But initially you don’t think that initially. You get tricked by happiness sometimes. So, one has to be ready, careful. We want to do everything to please Kṛṣṇa. We don’t want any shortcuts. We don’t want any deviations. We just want to do the proper thing. Which will be the most pleasing to Kṛṣṇa, to be sure. That’s how we always should consult with the spiritual master. Be sure that things are according to the scripture. So here Prahlāda is teaching his student friends. Convincing them that, they should chant like that. Each one of us, wherever we are, if you’re working or if you’re students or the family. How to convince your children to be Kṛṣṇa conscious.

How to convince your friends, your neighbors, your work colleagues here when you get an opportunity. Had some disciple, who was working for AT&T, but she was a bit too much outgoing. So, people tended to be pretty, what’s it called, tactful. But somehow people knew that she was a devotee. And she knew because she was like, you know, pretty outgoing about it. But I told her to lay low because, but then one day there was our lady came up to her and said, “I just lost my mother, father, somebody who was very dear to me. I know that you have some spiritual knowledge, and you know about these things. Can you please tell us how can I meet you later? You can tell me something so I can deal with this better.” So be there for people. Be there to be able to help.

It was amazing yesterday, when were flying from LA to here on US air. I was in 3C and my secretary was in 3E. So, then there was a lady sat-down in 3D. I said, “Can I switch with you?” I said, “Next to my friend.” Then there’s this lady in the window seat and she’s talking like really loud, and I am just, you know, gently making some emails on my hand computer, and the guy comes and says, “You should turn, close your computer because we’re going to close the door of the airplane.” I said, “When you close it, I will turn it off.” “Well, no, we can’t close it until you turn it on.” That was a total scam. I have been flying, but this lady shouting on her phone, yeah, get in my case. What about her? I didn’t say that. I didn’t say.

But he got like kicked in. I didn’t say anything. But then she got on her case. So then we all turned off our. They were complaining, how the doors open. You know, we don’t know how, when they’re going to close the way once they close it, they tell everybody turn off. We start talking and then suddenly said, you know, we’re vegetarian. And she was talking with my secretary from Malaysia. She was fascinated by Malaysia. She goes, her mother went to Malaysia or something. But at one point she broke down. She said, she’s got this great job and everything. She’s going around selling things to Shafra and big companies. But she’s suffering so much in her family life and this and that. I don’t go into all of it, but well started crying right in the plane. Started crying.

And were talking, were saying how we’re vegetarian. So Vegetarian. Okay. You know, but why? Explain why we should be vegetarian. And so here, the animals, the fish are out here, I think it’s fish. Then I explained how a fish can eat anything. I mean they’re like scavengers that if there’s a dead body in the water, they will go and they will eat the… even a human dead bodies. If you eat fish, it’s like, “Oh, don’t tell me anymore. I am not going to eat fish again. Oh no. You know too much. If I keep asking you questions, I gotta, I am not gonna. My whole life’s gonna change.” But at the end, she took Pañca-tattva and Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, said, “Please keep in touch with me when I come and visit you India.” So it’s amazing. Sometimes you meet people. Usually, you don’t meet anybody.

I mean it’s rare, but sometimes you do meet. I still met one multi billionaire that said he was going to help us. I have to follow up on that one. He had just given a million and a half dollars to the Orangutan thing in there. Malaysia, save the Orangutan. So, you do meet people, and I remember one time I was flying from Calcutta to Bangkok. I had a reservation, a business class. And they said, “Sorry, but somehow your reservation got lost and I had to put you in economy.” See how business class ticket. “I don’t know what happened. We will refund you the difference later.” “Do that!” I was just starting to travel, so I was a little impatient. What’s going on? Now I just take it all. Never know what Kṛṣṇa’s plan is.

And I was sitting in the back of the plane and I look over and now everybody wears śikhās and neck beads. It’s like a fashion. But in those days, nobody wore śikhās and neck beads. I looked, I saw this devotee wearing neck-beads. I mean, I don’t know. I saw a young guy wearing a shirt and pants, wearing neck beads. And I said, “Haribol!” “Haribol Mahārāja! So how are you, ‘Mahārāja, I was trying to bloop. I was trying to run away. And you’re there. So Kṛṣṇa canceled.” So like Kṛṣṇa wants to intervene, cancel the reserve, put me in. How do I end up in that seat right next to two Ayala prophets in my own life? These things happen in me all the time. Sometimes I give a class, at end of class, someone walks up to me, “Mahārāja, who told you about my problem? Why are you picking on me?” I walk in, I don’t know a lot of the devotees here, but this person was sure I was just talking to him. We just prayed in the beginning; I always pray that, “Kṛṣṇa, just use me as an instrument, speak through me.” So, I may not know what I am saying is how it’s relating to different devotees. But it may have some special message to them. So, like this, you’re trying to serve Kṛṣṇa, be an instrument in his hands and see how many people we can save we’d like to. Right now, this lady was telling us all about this Kṛṣṇa, the seven days and the seven ones and the seven this and the seven. And how there’s going to be the Anti-Christ and all this.

So what we know there’s a 10,000-year golden period which is just about to start. You know, it’s just starting now. It’s just a twilight, but we have to actually activate it. She says that sounds good. So right now, we really have, it’s important to have all these centers. But how to actually reach out more? Kṛṣṇa, give us some opportunities. Whenever they come, we should think how to best utilize them for Kṛṣṇa service under guidance of guru and Kṛṣṇa.

Any questions? Comments?

Question: You were speaking about how Kṛṣṇa generally interferes only to devotees in rare circumstances.

Jayapatākā Swami: Not only great devotion could be. It could be any devotee. But not for a demon. Not for a demon.

Question: But sometimes I think even if I do something, I stub my toe or get a hearty kick. Why is Kṛṣṇa allowing this to happen? By your explanation, I am seeing that material world being suffering.

Answer: So, through suffering, if it’s too nice you want to stay here, you wouldn’t get. So maybe you want to like. Want to stay, you know, as a conscious thing. Because you may have seen your devotee, but you may not take it. You know, like so much of a priority to get out. Might kind of start to slide. You never know. You never know what? Right now, in some countries we have devotees. Some police guy gave a ticket to a devotee. They gave him a book and he became a devotee. Maybe Kṛṣṇa, why don’t you send you that policeman? He’d take your ticket. Okay. You know, you deserved it anyway. I am sure they didn’t give you a ticket for no reason.

But then maybe, you know, give him a book, give him a prasāda, invite him to the restaurant. Who knows, perhaps become the devotees too. I haven’t heard of too many in America, but in. In Europe there’s all kinds of. In England, in Russia there was this policeman. I got a picture of him, right? You were with me in Russia. Or was he in. Anyway, he’s wearing. You know, he was at the fireman at the festival in the Black Sea. I stood with one of these. He’s a devotee cop with his uniform. I have a disciple who’s on the vice squad in Croatia. So he’s always in plain clothes, busting Narcos, want a job for a devotion. But he’s also a good preacher, a devotee who met me at the airport, this IRS officer. He checks the computers in the big corporation to see if they’re cheating. Someone comes in and checks your income tax in terms of devoting or whatever it is. Anyway, this material world is meant for suffering, maybe someone else. It’s hard to understand why the things are happening. But here Arjuna, I mean Prahlāda just sums it up that this material world is meant for suffering. And that’s part of it, also when we suffer, we burn off. Devotees tend to burn off much more karma than the suffering that they go through. Like Prabhupāda, once he cut his finger and this one drop came out and he said, “Actually I should have had my head cut off, but I just had to suffer a drop.” So, who knows how many karmas you burned off by that parking ticket or whatever it was.

We are spending Kṛṣṇa’s money in parking, ticket.

Yes, Prabhu.

Question: As I recall, Prabhupāda said to me, inaudible (57:00)

Jayapatākā Swami: So what I am wondering is that it seems we have this idea that you sleep too much, but you don’t go down necessarily to the lowest rung on the ladder. You could say, so how is that? In other words, if we have to go through 8 million species before we get to the human form. And how is it that when you fall, do you also. Many people go all the way down to the lowest possible level and then start to work their way up.

Jayapatākā Swami: There’s a verse in the Bhagavad-gītā. I don’t have that one by heart. Where I think it’s in the 16^th chapter. The demons and devotees. Demoniac. Some people are so demoniac. Or maybe it’s in the fourth.

But some people are so demoniac that Kṛṣṇa puts them into low births so that they just because there’s so much inimical to him and they’re so demoniac, it puts him down. And they’re so far down that it’s practically, they never get back. There’s no perpetual. But by the time they work their way up again and they’re there, so what. What exact birth that is. They start off as a germ, come up from bacteria to work their way up again or that’s how it works. But that’s because they don’t want to know anything about God. They don’t know anything to do with spirituality. They want to be in ignorance. It’s not they’re given what they want. They want to be in total ignorance.

So if you’re just some kind of really low organism or some low kind of entity that has very little developed consciousness, then you know, I was in New Tālavana farm. They have this farm, 1300 acres. So there’s some season when I went there, when there were these what they call love bugs. And most of their life they were together copulating. So maybe there was someone that was really, you know, into sex life and he wants to enjoy, and she gets to be a love bug, you know, that’s all he wants to know or she wants to know, doesn’t want anything else higher in life. Most of their life, that’s what they’re doing. See him smashing against your windshield children.

So there’s all different kinds of births for different kinds.

I mean like sometimes Śrīla Prabhupāda look at a particular insect or particular what kind of desire that creature had, you know, that person had to get that birth. Everybody gets the birth that they desire. So, if someone, I mean they had to really be in the mode of ignorance as a human being to become a Bear again, you know, because they really have to really be extensively into sleep because human life is meant for higher development. So these are little bit of human life. May be, they went to a church, they do the go to the mosque, do something spiritual. They want to help other people, something in a little bit of touch of goodness is there, then they can come back as a human being.

But if someone’s like really, totally in ignorance to such an extent that particular birth fits then together right just to the T, that’s exactly what they want, just sleep or otherwise. You get cases where people are temporarily in a strange state of consciousness, and they take birth. Like Bharata Mahārāja, where he had so much attached about his deer. Then he died in deer consciousness. But he could remember his previous births. So that was like a rude awakening for him, like God blew it. So, the next life he came back as Prāṇa, the Prāṇa. There’s another number of stories like that, different people that might take birth as animal, but they remember or just for one, like in the Padma Purāṇa about the fifth chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā glories, there’s this whole long story how this man was a world class musician. But because he was such a famous musician. He was the royal musician of the emperor. But he would always have illicit relations with women because, you know, they’re magicians, you know, whatever they attract. So then his wife was very upset with him, obviously. And then she decided at one point, she got this strange idea that if she has an affair, then that will make her husband be loyal and faithful. But something happened when she had an affair and he objected and had this argument, “Well, you’re doing it, but you’re a woman, men can do it.” Whole horrible thing. But then what happened? She got attached to the other guy, which she didn’t expect. She was just doing it as a show to get her husband yet. But then she became a fallen lady, and she was having an affair with some other guy.

And then her husband was really getting angry with her and they’re having fights all the time. So then she saw him as an obstacle for her sense-gratification. Killed him in his sleep, cut his body in little pieces, threw it down into a well. And then the emperor asked, “Where’s my musician?” Called her and said, “Well, he went out for a program,” everything back. So declared her after so many time, she was declared as a de facto widow, put on a… What do you call, pension. Put on a pension. And she was enjoying life, you know, showing everyone. She’s like this very white dressed, you know, widow, very sacred person. But she was doing all kinds of nonsense on the side. Then she got this horrible disease where she died of hemorrhoids and piles. And she died from bleeding from the anus. She couldn’t sit down, she couldn’t lay down, she was in terrible pain. Who knows why people dying, what they did, this life or previous lives. Here they trace it out, like, okay, so what happened when he died? He was taken to Yamarāja for the judgement, and then Yamarāja said that, “Look, you’re a great musician, you rose high in society. You should have used your music to glorify God. Instead, you’re using your music to score women.” So, whatever, I maybe didn’t use that language, but you know, I can’t speak like that in other countries because nobody knows the slang. But anyway, this is being recorded. So anyway, he got sentenced to taking birth as a… as a vulture because he’s a high-flyer, but he’s a low looker. He flies very high, but he’s just looking down for dead bodies. So Prabhupāda gives that a…. Then when she died, she was taken. And then Yamarāja said, “Well, you put out your hand, show that you’re a very pious lady. But you were doing all these sinful things. So you’re actually like, you’re like a bird brain. You look pretty like a bird, but you got no intelligence how to utilize. You had this great position in the empire.” So, she became a parrot. So then it says that the vulture was flying over a forest, a jungle, and sees this parrot fly under him. Then he gets a sudden flashback that the parrot, this is ex-wife who had killed him in his sleep. So he died. He swoops down and catches her. Then he said, “Well, you made me suffer so much, I am not going to finish you off easy. I am going to make you die a slow death.” So, using his talents, he’s gradually just start tearing her apart. But little by bit. So she’s screaming and suffering. And these vultures are much bigger than parrots. This particular parrot in my case. So, he got thirsty from all the torturing and then he saw a nice dead body with a skull upside down. And in that skull there was some water. So for the vulture, this is like nectar drink. So he sits on the side of the skull and he’s going to drink the water, the parrot squealing, screaming, screeching. They hear a bird screech. And then some hunter hears and shoots the arrow, and it goes through both of the two, the parrot and the vulture, and they fall down into the water and the skull. Then they get taken back to Yamarāja. So this was just a one birth assignment.

There was just, it wasn’t like a permanent, they didn’t have to work their way up. But they were taken back then, the scribes, the people that are keeping track of the karmas, they’re like lawyers or something. They’re telling, “No, he should…” Maybe this was some lawyers ago, I don’t know. I don’t want to curse anybody. But what a job. Universal lawyer for the people’s karma. It says that there’s accountants there’s people that keep track of everything. So he said, “This person, he hasn’t done anything. He was torturing his ex-wife even as a bird. He’s got so much hate and envy in his heart. He should go back into the animal kingdom again or something.” Yamarāja goes in, a little meditation. Then he has a higher vision. He, he said, “No, both of them are free, they’re going back to Godhead.” So the man, he said, “Maybe there’s some mistake here because I really am a bad person. I mean, I am really bad. I mean, that was true. I am bad. How could I possibly deserve to go back to Godhead? What did I do that I could possibly go back?”

And then Yamarāja says, “Well, you were sitting on the edge of this skull, which had water in it, and that was a devotee who every day used to chant. It was a skull, it was the cadaver, the skull, whatever known as the skull, the skeleton of a devotee who was chanting the fifth chapter of Bhagavad-gītā every day. And… [recording ended abruptly]