19830917 Eve of Vāmana Dvādaśī - Evening Darśana

The following was an Evening Darśana given by His Holiness Jayapatākā Swami on September 17th, 1983 in Atlanta Georgia.

Jayapatākā Swami: Today is the event Vāmana-dvādaśī. Our fast today on Ekādaśī counts for tomorrow. I was present when Śrīla Prabhupāda was lecturing on Vāmana-dvadaśī. When he starts to discuss Vāmanadeva... Vāmana... Is it Vāmana-dvādaśī, or Varāha?

Devotees: Vāmana

Jayapatākā Swami: Vāmana. As I mentioned, I was in Kerala during the Onam festival where Bali Mahārāja is celebrated. In some parts of India, this Vāmana-avatāra pastime is so big that it looks like their Christmas, the things connected with Bali Mahārāja and Vāmanadeva is the biggest holiday. So, of course, Vāmanadeva, when Prabupada, he started discussing on Vāmanadeva then he said that, "Well, if we discuss about one of the incarnations, the avatāras, we have to discuss about all of them, because ultimately they're all coming from Kṛṣṇa. Different pastimes, different purposes.

So Vāmana is when Kṛṣṇa came as a dwarf brāhmaṇa in the society of the demigods. The whole pastime of Vāmanadeva and Bali Mahārāja... Bali Mahārāja was the grandson of Prahlāda, but as such, he was king of the demons. Prahlāda was the son of Hiraṇyakaśipu, who was a demon. In the universal situation, there are specific races of people who are basically demoniac, and in the Bhāgavatam it mentions that there is a class of living entity called asura. These asuras are more powerful than even subordinate demigods like gandharvas and others. They have their own planets; they have mystic powers. They can travel sometimes from planet to planet. They… They're... I mean, a human being is, you know, 1/10th of a percent compared to these people.

They are very... so, they're the only people that can sometimes defeat the demigods but normally they don’t defeat them. Normally they are defeated. But there is always a rivalry between. So Prabhupāda used that to point out that even Indradeva... because he's a devotee, but he is a devotee with material desires. That he is always in conflict with these asuras. He is always fearful. But this time, Because Bali Mahārāja, he did worship to Viṣṇu, he followed the instructions of his guru with complete faith. He became insurmountable, and he defeated Indra. Indra went to his guru and said, "What can we do? The... Bali is defeating us."

He said that, "You can’t do anything now. Because if a person has complete faith in the Guru and follows instructions like that, then there's nothing that can stop him. So you have to wait because the asuras because they don’t... for the time being they are following regulative principles, they are doing their things accordingly, you can’t stop them, but they are going to make mistakes because they are not pure, and when they make a mistake, that will be your chance. So you better right now just retreat otherwise you just use all your energy and you'll be permanently crippled." So then, the mother of all the demigods Aditi, she started to, you know pray to Viṣṇu to help. She had to do a big pūjā to get Viṣṇu to come and be her child. So she was able to have Vāmanadeva as her child. Then Vāmanadeva of course went to the kingdom of... to the palace... to the place of Bali and as a small boy as a dwarf asking for uh... he said, "You can have anything." because Bali was very generous. He would give charity, profusely to the brāhmaṇas, you see. In the Vedic times, even the asuras knew that by giving charity they are going to get lot of pious activities. The idea that... they would they knew the law of karma. They are not like modern-day atheists, who don’t know anything, but they knew the laws of nature, laws of karma. So, they give charity. They would build up puṇya, but then they would use that practically even in defiance of God. They will even exploit God for their own purpose. They would ultimately not for his purpose, they would be no surrender. Bali was like a kind of... as a grandson of Prahlāda, he is actually a real devotee at heart. But he had brought with him all of these demons. So Bali Mahārāja, when he was offered an opportunity to give charity, he said, "You can take whatever you want."

So He said, "I want only three steps of land."

Said, "Why don’t you ask for more? You can have a kingdom. You can have so many things, why just three steps of land? What is the value of that?"

Said, "No. Whatever I can cover in three steps..." said, "...just give me that."

So then, Śukrācārya, his guru told him that, "No, if you do that then... this is actually Viṣṇu in disguise. You'll lose everything. He will take everything. He can. He is looking like a little dwarf now, but his potential are unlimited. This is actually God in disguise. He is coming like this for His own purpose to actually benefit the demigods. But if you agree to his proposal you'll lose everything, because He’s got no limit."

Then Bali said, "What kind of a guru are you? (laughter) The whole life you've been telling me to worship God. By worshiping, I became ruler of the whole universe. And now you saying, He came Himself in disguise and He is asking three steps land... not to give it to Him... and lie. I've already said I will give it to Him."

Says, "Well you can lie sometimes." Then he gave reasons, in different circumstances you can lie.

Said, "Sometimes you have to lie to your wife, you know, or flatter her or something. Sometime you have to lie to your friend if it’s going to save his honor or maybe or sometimes you can..." He gave all the different times when you can lie (laughter) you know, in normal soci...

"But this is a different thing... But I’m not going to lie to God."

Says, "You can lie when you are saving your life. Say, you are caught, and it's life or death then somehow you could lie, to save you." Said, "This is like that, you better lie. Just tell him you can’t do it. You said it, but you take it back."(laughter).

He said, "No, I can’t... I can't maintain that."

So then... of course then after that then Vāmana, He expanded to the size of... He covered in one step the whole planet. Next step the whole universe, with His body and Vāmana… Bali had the vision you know, where he could see that Vāmana’s form by... Viśva-rūpa, universal form of one sort manifested that... how the total energy of the universe was part of Kṛṣṇa and how this form of Vāmana had spread out through the whole universe. So there was no space left. Everything was covered.

Then He came back and said, "So now where do I put the third step?" In two steps He had already taken everything. So then Bali said, "There's only one place left." He says, "You put it here. Put it on my head." And, because he surrendered everything. So, when we have the nine practices of devotional service: śravaṇa, kīrtana, smaraṇa, vandana, pāda-sevana, dāsyaṁ, pūjā, sakhya, ātma-nivedanaṁ. So, ātma-nivedanaṁ means to surrender everything. So Bali Mahārāja is used as the example of surrendering everything. He didn't do any other devotional service for say… at that point, but explicitly what he did the main thing, he completely just surrendered everything. "Okay, I give myself; You do with me what You want."

So... of course then Kṛṣṇa, He became even his doorkeeper. He said that, "Alright, you leave this place, and I’ll give you your own planet, and that planet will be better than this place, because you will... because even Indra and you... you always have to fear Indra is going to attack you, and Indra always is fearing you're going to attack him. So you be there. And I’ll give a whole planet and just to protect that no one can attack you, I'll personally be there with My Sudarśana-cakra. You don’t have to worry about anyone attacking."

Like that... ultimately the devotee never perishes. Kṛṣṇa promises a devotee protection, so whether Prahlāda Mahārāja was protected by Nṛsiṁhadeva, Mother Earth was protected by Varāha, all these things make things very fantastic, you see, but because ultimately if we understand that the potential of Kṛṣṇa to do something is unlimited, therefore, nothing is really fantastic. Nothing is impossible for Him to achieve. But if we don’t understand that basic potential of the Lord then of course everything seems pretty fantastic. Nowadays we are having so many different types of movies, science fiction. People are speculating different things that seem every wonderful to watch all these different, you know... 75 million dollars in special effects. The Return of the Jedi, right? All of these different things. But what is the actual value?

It’s actually... in India they would show Rāmāyaṇa, Vāmana-avatāra, different avatāra, but they don’t have the technologies, so they always comes out very corny when they try to do the special effects. But actually people go and they would get lot of spiritual inspiration just from these different movies. When they first came out the majority of the movies were religious. Now they got into social, and love movies and so on, but originally, the religious movies were the most prominent to kind of break into the market. Now gradually they are degrading. Still, the biggest sellers are the religious movies. But, that way, rather than just going into some kind of, useless thing. Even in the West, Prabhupāda wanted that some time that would be Bhagavad-Gītā movie. So you have The Bible. The Bhagavad-Gītā. Ending was Kṛṣṇa speaking the Bhagavad-Gītā on the Battlefield of Kurukṣetra. There is a big scope for giving people spiritual knowledge. The Vedic idea is that you don’t have to have another type of entertainment. Your entertainment itself can be completely spiritual. And a person can be completely satisfied, at the same time is you're been entertained or so to speak, you're being... you are having an outlet for your... your mental, and visual and other sensual expression. You're at the same time absorbed in transcendental meditation. So, this is possible in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

In the impersonal system then it’s not very practical. Either you stare at a candle or look at your nose, or you meditate on the nothingness. So then what happens is that actually promotes sense gratification. Like when you preach to a Buddhist, they have a very strong bhoga-tyāga syndrome: Enjoying, renouncing mood. The system of their monks is that when you become a monk, when you have to abstain from so many things. Like you have to abstain from sex life. You have to abstain…. Whether you are a monk or a nun have to abstain from drinking alcohol, have to abstain from... Many of them are vegetarians. Some of them aren't, nowadays. Many of them are. They're not that strict in the diet. But they have to go begging. But what they do is, they'll become monk for one month or two months or three months and then after a while, then their passions will grow then they'll give up the dress, go out and do complete bhoga, complete sense gratification. For a period of time, when they get tired of that then they go back to being a monk. They go back and forth like that, you see, until finally, they get so frustrated that they want to commit some kind of spiritual suicide, which is what they call nirvāṇa.

Nirvāṇa actually is a spiritual suicide… that’s when you want to completely disintegrate your existence. So, in a... in a impersonal situation actually sense gratification is promoted because there is no... nothing attractive about self-realization. It’s just on the basis that material life is so much suffering. When a person goes for enjoyment and ultimately they suffer so much: Heart break, various material diseases, various problems, that it becomes so frustrating... just like today they are saying that amongst the high schools and college students, suicide is at a epidemic rate. According to someone who was mentioning today that they did a study and the third greatest cause of death in America after car accidents and after, I don’t know what...

Devotee: Heart disease.

Jayapatākā Swami: Heart disease is suicide. That means the people are so frustrated that they committing suicide. In a... in such a huge number, and they said that if you actually went into the accidents, you find that thirty percent of them are actually people willingly, you know, they are calling it an accident but actually it’s a suicide. So it’s probably in the number two place. Is it... in I heard that in Sweden, their, suicide rate there, any pressure comes, people commit suicide. There's some tremendous percentage like 5 % of the people commit... I don’t know, but some… maybe that was just a psychiatrist there. But it was a certain that a very high suicide rate in Sweden also but it is considered to have a higher per capita income than America. It is very impersonal there. So the desire that why should a person suffer, "I'm trying to be happy but instead, I’m suffering."

"So then, instead of committing suicide..." then the impersonal school said, "...alright, you actually spiritually you merge into some energy source or into nothingness... if it's Buddhism it's the nothingness, nirvāṇa, and if its Vedic impersonalism, it's into the Brahma-jyoti, the spiritual light, you see. So what Kṛṣṇa conscious actually shows is spiritual reality which is filled with so many transcendental qualities, which actually satisfies. But when a person is first coming into spiritual life, they may feel that, "Oh! This is another... it is going to be another frustration. It is going to be another personal relationship various type of frustrations are going to come because it must be material. It's got so many qualities in people and personalities." and they already come prejudiced from their material frustration that because this has got varieties and qualities they must also be of a similar frustrating nature, you see. That’s the contamination of impersonalism. That they don’t want a personal relationship. They don’t want anything which has got this type of a personal nature, and so they are attractive in the modern age more to impersonalism, and now this is being further complicated by the whole computer... Instead of a personal relationship, you can have a relationship with your computers, video games, and so on.

So, I read an article that in England, the biggest cause of breaking up marriages now is amongst... in a very high rate in the computer operators for various reasons. So, they were complaining that it affects. Dealing with machines, dealing with various things, they don’t know have that... they lose their ability to relate as people, apparently. I don’t know the details, why it happens, but they're complaining, but in general, this is what’s happening in the modern world; people are becoming more and more impersonal, and then the natural syndrome is either to desire complete sense gratification or to desire complete annihilation. Due to frustrations, becomes so great.

So, actually Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the real positive alternative and the thing we have to watch out for is not to fall into the trap of fearing the personal relationships of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the relationship with Kṛṣṇa the whole spiritual variety, that, "Somehow this is also going to be a material frustrating situation." That actually, in the relationship with Kṛṣṇa everything that happens is actually completely satisfying, right? Someone, when you describe how mother Yaśodā was lamenting because Kṛṣṇa had gone to Dvārakā and left Vṛndāvana, so it sounds like it’s a material thing that, "Why she is crying for Kṛṣṇa?" So they say, "What's the difference here? Mother is crying for the son." The difference is that in material life, we are not the body. It's even though there is some… the closest thing to love is there. But because the basic relationship is on a material level, ultimately, it’s not completely satisfying. But because thinking about Kṛṣṇa, desiring Kṛṣṇa, lamenting for Kṛṣṇa, being with Kṛṣṇa is all non-different, it’s all on the absolute platform, then if you were to offer Mother Yaśodā that, "You can trade that in for anything else. I’ll give you another son." or anything, she is actually, completely satisfied within that relationship. And then, the intense meditation of Kṛṣṇa through this emotional involvement that Kṛṣṇa actually appears before them. Just like when Mother Yaśodā came as Śacī Mātā - the mother of Lord Caitanya - she was offering, various offerings to her Deity. But she was thinking that, "If only Lord Caitanya was here to take these offerings. If He would only be tasting these preparations I made." And then she came back and saw everything was half eaten. There was just a little bit left. She couldn’t understand why. Then when Lord Caitanya came to Navadvīpa in... sometime later. Just after ten years, He came back there and allowed Mother Śacī, just to meet her really. She came over and saw Him and said, "Remember that day you offered... you were thinking like this and then all the prasādam was... the plates... I was... personally came and ate, and I come every day and eat, but you don’t see Me, you see. So you don’t feel that... don’t feel bad that I’m... I’m coming every day and taking your offerings."

So one of the places where Lord Caitanya always is... is where ever mother Śacī is offering her prasāda... bhoga to Lord Caitanya, that He's always there to... The real thing is that in the real relationship which is not based just upon... Even... even a mother loves her son, and that’s a natural love... Some... There was once a... Prabhupāda asked a mother that “Why do you love your child?”

She said, "Well, it’s my duty for Kṛṣṇa..."

and he says, "No... you love..." He says, "Why you are going through all this care, this..."

"My duty to Kṛṣṇa..." and so many...

He says, "No, you love your child." you see.

It’s natural for a mother to love the child. This is natural, you see. So, the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is not interrupted, natural flows in that sense, natural emotions. But then, when if you really love your child, then the next thing is "What’s the best thing I can give my child?" That’s Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. That’s spiritual... That's to free the child from cycle of birth and death, rather than trying to relate it to some kind of you know, "It’s my duty." or this... No, actually, it's a natural affection that grows there between... this is some... even though it may be due to material... due to material relation, but that's... that’s not in itself false. It may be temporary, because why? When we leave this body, then there's no more connection.

Where that son is going to go, or that daughter's going to go? Where are the mother and father? They all go their different way. Then just in this lifetime, there is some temporary connection is there. But if we can translate that into a permanent assistance, see that has some real value. So that’s... the whole problem is that, not that the relationship itself is.. its incomplete because of the various other material considerations that come in it. Sometimes it may be pure. Sometimes it just maybe attraction for one's own sense gratification, and one becomes very attached thinks that that's actually love, when in fact it's... it’s... it's very little love. Primarily it’s a type of lust, or material attachment, but when we put that in relation to Kṛṣṇa, because we are part of Kṛṣṇa, so, our fully just serving Kṛṣṇa for His satisfaction automatically satisfies our senses. Just like the hand serving the body. You can say, "Well the hand, why... if the hand was a person serving a body, had an individual consciousness, you see, but still was a part, then it could be termed as a relationship of love. But it's a spontaneous... by serving the body, it also getting its own benefit. But in that conscious, we don’t have to think, that, "I’m doing this, because I’m getting the benefit." you see whether we think that or not, if we even if we just absorb ourself that uh... in serving Kṛṣṇa, you see, we actually, immediately get satisfied.

We just had Rādhāṣṭamī. These phenomena, that the devotee of Kṛṣṇa, the devotee of God in serving God gets so much transcendental happiness... It’s the basic thing that why Lord Caitanya came in the material world, that He saw, Kṛṣṇa saw that, "Rādhārāṇī, My greatest devotee is experiencing such transcendental ecstasy serving Me, that I as the master... in the master position do not experience that much transcendental ecstasy." Being conscious... He became conscious that She was experiencing more ecstasy than He was... and a different kind, and there were other various factors so He decided that He wanted to also experience from a... own subjective point of view actually, what was that... what did they see in here what’s the … ecstasy they... happiness they were experiencing here. So He came, took the mood of Rādhārani and came as Lord Caitanya, His own devotee.

So although we may be by nature part of Kṛṣṇa, we are very minute, but our relationship with Kṛṣṇa as His devotee is not a inferior position. It’s not a position... It’s not a question of inferior or superior. Kṛṣṇa may be predominating, and we may be predominated, but within there our relationship, it's perfect and complete. It’s not that an inferior, it just happens to be the reciprocal relationship. And within that we can even experience the maximum amount of transcendental ecstasy which will be completely satisfying to us and which is the relationship we are really hankering for. We won't even be satisfied by the… we don’t actually we're not actually annihilated. What actually happens is for that period of time, we're in nirvāṇa, or we're in the brahma-jyoti we just lose our awareness of our personal identity. And after sometime again we fall down from that position because it's an unnatural state. Our nature is to be always active. So, actually we are hankering for is not this impersonal thing. We are actually hankering for a relationship with Kṛṣṇa.

That's a culmination of self-realization... is to actually realize our eternal spiritual identity and our eternal relationship with the Supreme person. But it's so esoteric this is the most secret of all secrets. Normally people are absorbed in material consciousness to get to that level, one has to be completely spiritually conscious. In the Bible, the holy name of God is guarded, was such a secret that it would never be spoken out loud it would only be given from one priest the other. This is the basic Vedic same system is there. The guru would give a disciple the mantra. Its Lord Caitanya who is actually by His mercy, He's opened up the door that everyone can be given this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Before, Hare Kṛṣṇa would be given only to initiates. Lord Caitanya has protected that, "No, there won’t be any offence if you give people this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra chanting." So, this is a very great facility that we can chant these names of God, these transcendental vibrations and we can actually, very quickly become purified and be reinstated in our personal relationship with Kṛṣṇa.

So as we are trying to please Kṛṣṇa then we become pleased. Bali was not satisfied in his position, when he finally surrendered to Kṛṣṇa, then he... then even though Kṛṣṇa test him in various ways, when he surrendered, then he became completely satisfied. Then his guru... so called guru, he admitted that he had actually committed a great offence and he has gone against the scriptures. But he was very attached to his material position. In other words, if the disciples stop becoming the ruler of the universe, than he stops becoming the spiritual master of the ruler of the universe. So, he wasn’t thinking of the best interest of a disciple, spiritually but he was thinking of his material position. That as long as he was in that material position then he would be in a higher, he is be... he is… he was in a very good position as a spiritual master. So that type of spiritual master should be avoided that simply trying to get some kind of material personal benefit from the disciple.

So in fact the Śukrācārya he then later apologies. He also glorified that by the holy name everything can made perfect. So, under certain circumstances, if one may have taken initiation from a guru. And later finds out that the guru has given bad instruction which is against the śāstra, which is contradicting the previous gurus. But somehow that person was... is not a Vaiṣṇava, is not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa, then one has to give him up. There is no offense for that. Whereas it is an offense that you realize that, that the... what is guru mean? Guru means representative of Kṛṣṇa. He is not to give his own idea but he is to represent what is the actual version in the śāstra without distortion, what is the actual words of Kṛṣṇa. He has an understanding of the scripture, he is living the scripture and he is explaining to his students, to his disciples. If he changes that or gives his own idea, his own theories, he is not actually guru.

That’s why Prabhupāda in 1936, when he gave the Vyāsa-pūjā, you can read that Vyāsa-pūjā offering. It’s in every Vyāsa-pūjā for Prabhupāda, he explains that guru is one. If you say guru, "My guru, your guru everyone’s guru is one." Because if they're real guru, that means they are all representing Kṛṣṇa, so they won’t be any difference. Two things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. If one guru is perfectly representing Kṛṣṇa, and other guru is perfectly representing Kṛṣṇa, that means that there is no difference between them, right? But if they are not perfect, they are giving some different ideas based on their own mental concoction, then they are not guru at all. Guru means that they're representing. They may be called as guru but they are not actually gurus. Therefore the question of giving up ones guru doesn’t really come. If you release that one is not representing Kṛṣṇa, is not serving Kṛṣṇa, not a devotee of Kṛṣṇa that means he is not guru even he may he is guru. They are so many gurus like that in the world who are not actually representing the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore they are not actually gurus, even though they may be called like that, you see.

So the real qual... the first qualification to be a spiritual master is one has to be a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. And the second is that, one has to be... repeating the words of Kṛṣṇa as it is, and the third is that one should have a good character, and before initiation, a student should actually test, see, whether the guru has these qualifications. Because, upon partaking initiation, then one should be following the advice of the guru without question. That mean, not without a question. You can have questions, but now without challenging. You don’t understand something, if it is some... you know misconception that should be all cleared up. It’s not a blind... that one should blindly follow without even understanding why or without, with having many doubts but it shouldn’t be a challenge. That "I won’t follow you. Even you say that..." that type of challenging is over. Beforehand one might even challenge, "How do we know this? How do we know that?" But it is not the actual method. Method is a submissive inquiry. Doing service, submissive inquiry, surrender and then taking the instructions. Then when one sees that it’s actually working, "I'm becoming detached from material life, I’m getting some relief, I’m getting some spiritual inspiration, you see. Then one should take initiation from a spiritual master. And formally maintain that relationship eternally birth after birth even, until one reaches Kṛṣṇa. Even at that time, the relationship is there... in a slightly different way. But just... the guru also has to check the disciple, test the disciple. The disciple should basically be faithful, you see. There is no value to initiating a disciple that don’t have faith. If they're not... if you tell a disciple that “No, under this circumstance this is the best thing for you.”

“No, I don’t accept.”

So then there what’s the value of initiating such a disciple? They won’t take, it’s just like, in the material you go to a doctor. You know the doctor, doesn’t know what he is talking about, he may or may not know. You go to ten doctors; they tell you ten different things. So it’s the question of faith, who are you going to follow? But you have to follow some doctor; otherwise, you are not going to be cured. So in the spiritual life whatever the... the... the spiritual master has to be found someone who knows what are the actual words of Kṛṣṇa. What has been handed down. And then ultimately one has to put faith that the advice that’s going to be given is going to be something which is going to be pure and going to be effective. When you don’t have the faith, then it is very difficult. So, before initiation one is to supposed to see, you know by practical application, by enquiry, and when one actually develops the faith and sees that, “Yes this is a bona fide spiritual master." seeing the description from the scriptures, seeing the descriptions from great devotees, what are the qualifications of the spiritual master. Then one has to follow those instructions after initiation.

So the spiritual master sees whether the person is faithful. Whether they are mature enough, have developed enough faith that they actually want to follow the spiritual life, and the second thing, whether they have basically good character. That’s why we let people take six months, see. Practice informally as a devotee and you want... if you feel and then also in that six months, practice regulative principles, you see. Whatever you might have been before, but develop good character. Person's already being a vegetarian or in some cases, Prabhupāda a has even reduced the period of six months, but in general, in this age everybody has bad habits so it’s good to have that period both that they can themselves see that “Yes, this is actually working for me. This is actually what I want. Actually I want to follow the spiritual master." because once when one takes initiation it shouldn’t be whimsically broken.

Even when people get married, they say that they are supposed to serve each other for whole life, but now people break it very easily because of various reasons. But this is not a material relationship it’s not even for one life but the oath is said that, "I’m going to... until I reach... untill, you know, for birth after birth, I’m going to follow this life and even in future lives, I’m going to follow the spiritual master." One may not forget this life, may in next life maintain the same memory or in many different ways may meet the same spiritual master. If one hasn’t finished the business. So one's obligation is to continue following. So it’s a big responsibility. So before one takes that… we also give some time. Don’t rush into it. It’s not that... Prabhupāda said that, when we after giving so many followers like stars in the sky, we want moons. One moon can take away all the darkness.

Now, on Ekādaśī its the raising moon, Kṛṣṇa's born in the waning moon, and this is called the waxing. The rising moon... So, the waxing moon, so now the moon is very bright. So like that in Māyāpur especially, when we have full moon then you can see practically for miles away, you can see, it is so... there is no street lights, it's just there on the Ganges side, very peaceful. That dark moon you can’t see anything, it is pitch black. You can see miles away different city light, not city, little glows even from the railway station, some ten miles away, you can see a little light glow there. Thieves always come in the dark moon night. (laughter)

That’s when they make their attacks, but in the full moon night, it is so bright that, practically you could read a book. I've taken a book outside and you can actually see the letters it’s so bright in Māyāpur. No smog of course. So, we want people like that; the disciple should be like a moon. They should be able to... in other words, not only get the light but be able to reflect it to others, you see. So, just, in India people, they all come up and say, "I'd like to take initiation." Sometimes they go up to the, you know, brahmacārīs, and mātājīs on the street when they are doing saṅkīrtana, “Can I have dīkṣā?” (laughter) You know, because it’s just become like an institution you can... they, they look... like when we're preaching Nāmahaṭṭa. We go... there was one family was initiation by Bhaktisiddhānta, and their grandchildren, they took initiation from some little family guru in Navadvīpa. So when the preacher asked, "Why have you done this? Why didn't you stay in the same, you know... line." They said, "Well, your, your line is very strict, you say no eating of meat, fish and egg. But the other guru, he said, we could eat fish and take tea." So we found that it’s better to go with him. (laughter) You know, like K-mart or something, they wanted a cheaper way out. They weren’t thinking that what was the goal of taking in spiritual master, what was the purpose; they were just thinking that "Alright..." Cause in India everybody... just like a baptism, everybody wants to have the guru. Must have a guru, they know the śāstra, everyone has to have a spiritual master. What is the responsibility of the disciple to the spiritual master? What is the purpose of having the spiritual master? These things they forgot, many people, so they just... so then, alright, they have to have a guru. So some of them... in Bengal you know, it should be a Vaiṣṇava, okay... someone, "I'm a Vaiṣṇava." But then they take whosever the easiest. "Alright you can do this; you can do that. "Okay I will take it." So that becomes very cheap, you see. And most people what spiritual master can they make? So that was... that’s the basis why this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is actually progressing because Kṛṣṇa is there. Of course, He's helping from within...

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...desiring to achieve the Absolute Truth we want to realize ourself, want to realize God, want to overcome material things, material obstacles." That’s when within the heart Kṛṣṇa is supporting but the spiritual masters… Kṛṣṇa helping from with outside. Guiding us, helping us the specifically externally and even reinforcing confirming the very things we feel inspired from our own heart. So the faith in the spiritual master just like Bali Mahārāja could conquer the whole universe. The faith in the spiritual master is the basic strength that’s what's making the Kṛṣṇa Consciousness movement spread over the world.

Any Indian when they come and they see that the thing they comment upon is that in your movement you have taught... that Prabhupāda has established the real standard of guru and disciple faith, guru and disciple reciprocation. Prabhupāda gave his complete life for his disciples traveling all over the world he said, "I have 40 million dollars’ worth of temples." Normally a person like that, if he had someone he left a... now it's even more probably if you consider the whole world. He said, "But I never stay at any place more than 3, 4 days." he says, "I have no time in stay anywhere, because he wants to continue and meet all of the disciples all of the devotees and try to encourage them." You see. He said, "I'll eat the same three chapattis, four or five chapattis, whatever and..." you see. "...everything is used for Kṛṣṇa." Nowadays you read in the paper you find people have you know, so-called gurus and leaders they have purchasing newspapers and all kinds of things in different foreign countries and amassing personal fortunes. Obviously they are exploiting people. I don’t know, it seems that I have been go in to it. You can never... it seems to be that way, without going in to the... you see. The disciple might offer some car or something to a spiritual master so they can do their service, but the spiritual master lifestyle, his serving of Kṛṣṇa why should that change, you see?

There is no other... apart from the Vedic culture there is no standard and within Vedic culture the standard is very explicit, you see... what can be done. In the service of Kṛṣṇa you can utilize practically everything, but there is a very fine line what is the difference between sense gratification and doing things for Kṛṣṇa. If it’s actually utility... has some utility for advancing the cause of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is never mind. Even if it is materially opulent, and if it is not useful for advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness we don’t have to take it. So this is the basic strength of our movement is that the disciple and guru relationship.

So this whole... in a sense, this is a unique thing because Bali Mahārāja he’s given his faith to guru. By then the final test, his guru misguided him. So that was, that is like.. most unfortunate if a person puts his faith in his spiritual master and his spiritual master subsequently either... gives a misguidance. It has happened. There are several scriptural instances. It sometimes does happen that a guru either was initially good and then became bad or that the guru gives a bad advice. At that time if the disciple is mature enough and actually understands that guru is representing Kṛṣṇa, now what he is saying is not representing Kṛṣṇa. It’s a big step. If you make the wrong mistake and you renounce the spiritual master when he is actually giving the good advice he is considered the guru-aparādha. It’s the biggest offense. But in fact he is no longer acting as guru no longer representing Kṛṣṇa then one is also obliged to give him up.

In this case Bali Mahārāja directly could surrender to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa was right there. Kṛṣṇa was saying do something. Then guru admitted "This is Kṛṣṇa. He is saying to do this, but I am saying don’t do it."

"Alright then I give you up. You are not guru. If you're admitting that this is God and you're supposed to be His representative, you're telling me not to follow Him then obviously you are not His representative therefore I will not follow you.” He is very clear cut. So, a person should be very clear and then by equally, once you find the bona fide spiritual master one should put faith in the spiritual master. And then take the guidance and the help that is there to be offered. I remember one time there was a devotee, Prabhupāda came, I believe it was to Calcutta when I was there. And there was a devotee who was completely frustrated. He was looking down, looking sad. Prabhupāda came in the room, I was there, and the devotee... he said, "Why you are looking so sad?" He said, "In the presence of guru, the disciple should never be unhappy. So what is the use of having a spiritual master when you are in his presence when he is there present and you are still unhappy? If you have something on your mind, if there's some pr.... you should reveal it to the spiritual master and you should take his guidance to solve the problem."

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Therefore in the presence of the spiritual master, there is no cause for the disciple to be unhappy, because the spiritual master can solve any problem. Simply by following his instructions and the problem will be solved. You see, without the spiritual master, one is alone without a spiritual master at all, one's hopeless and say one has spiritual master but he is far away, at that time maybe some time one may feel some inconvenience, but right in the presence of the spiritual master there is no reason, there is no cause to be in anxiety. You can express your mind; you can say what's on your... what's your problem and the thing can be solved. You get guidance how to, how to rectify those obstacles, how to overcome the difficulties. Then that person is still in some kind of weird mode, you see, tāmasika. He just wasn't receptive. And Prabhupāda said, "I order you to be happy. (Laughter) You must be happy in my presence." Sometimes of course, difficulties happen in a person’s spiritual life so that's why the spiritual master is there because you are not pure enough... even Kṛṣṇa is in our heart we are not pure enough to get the message from Kṛṣṇa what to do and what not to do so we don’t know if it’s our mind that's is telling us to due our previous conditioning, or whether it’s actually the Supersoul telling us, so we verify, major things, we verify with the spiritual master or his representative.

So, this Vāmana-avatāra pastime has got many of these instructions to give up. The importance of surrendering to God, to Kṛṣṇa, the wonderfulness of the personal relationship the devotee has with his Supreme Person, so much... once you surrender to Kṛṣṇa then there's no more worry. Kṛṣṇa is taking complete care through the spiritual master one surrenders to Kṛṣṇa, he is protected. Kṛṣṇa says, "My devotee shall never perish." Then another instruction we get is that what is the relationship of guru and disciple? So many instructions we can take so, it’s not just that the pastime of Vāmana and Bali Mahārāja had given... just as an entertainment that we're given some kind of story. There is an inner purpose, when you study under the guidance of bonafide spiritual master, these particular pastimes that are going on in the Purāṇas, that they have a wealth of significance, and we can gain a specific instruction by seeing, how these great devotees are acting under these circumstances? And we are supposed to follow in their example,

mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ

in other words, they under certain stressful situations, certain crises situations certain specific instances they have been put to the test and they... because they are great souls, they've passed it. They've done the proper thing or even they make a mistake, so whatever then we also see how they have to suffer for it. So it have a specific instructions for us. That we should follow the great souls as good examples and those who are failed we should avoid their examples. It’s not just... you know, passing the time; There's a very great instruction by hearing and actually understating the mercy that Kṛṣṇa has for every individual person, how is He's actually the well-wisher and friend, and understanding all these spiritual... because it’s very purifying. And if we continue to hear these pastimes in the proper mood of faith and open-mindedness, you see... even if a new person can might not have full faith in Kṛṣṇa if he just takes it from, "Alright, let me try to understand these people saying that Kṛṣṇa and his various avatāras, incarnations are God. Let me give it the benefit of the doubt, it might be, let me try to understand from that angle of vision does it make any sense or not?" Just a little bit of open mind if someone tries to understand just to understand the instructions that are given, what would be the meaning of that, in such case that person can also become purified.

Just as a person comes right from the beginning until he is kept to go I won’t believe in anything I am not going to hear, or you people bunch of liars, I won't listen." You know, of course, then what can you... if a person won't even give an open hearing... Even a judge is supposed to be neutral, right? Then what can you say to the person? Therefore we don’t preach to such people. It’s a waste of time unless they want at least give a receptive hearing. Whether it’s with faith or whether it’s just as a neutral party, open mind giving some minor faith, slight benefit of the doubt just to just try to understand the subject matter from a neutral position. In either case, then they can gain something spiritual, cause they're submissively hearing.

So this is the basic process of Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. It’s the same process for practice from millions of years guru and disciple. And now once the person understands something then you digest it you hear it. Try to digest it, try to understand it, if there is any indigestion that comes up any kind of doubt, or little bit unclarity then one takes it out and again offers up some questions to further understand the matter, and then again tries to digest it. If it is fully digested, then you try to preach it to others. Then it becomes realized knowledge. As you preaching then that thing even becomes more clear. Because then you try to apply it, you have to apply it in the... preaching means that individual people when you explain to them, naturally in your mind you are applying to their lifetime, to their situation, to that particular circumstance, so there when you are repeating it, it is becoming realized in your own mind. Then it becomes very firmly fixed.

Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare
Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare

Actually tomorrow, I would like to... any devotees that would like to meet me, like to make a schedule during the day we can have a... try to meet as many devotees as possible.

Question: I was wondering, at this situation if one is lamenting, "Oh, I miss being in this other temple because of the certain service which was wonderful, or I miss this devotee, or something like that, during the time of that lamentation, is that remembering? Your services, you're (inaudible) if you're in one temple and you were in another temple.

Jayapatākā Swami: The grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence. (laughter) In devotional service, there are various factors to be considered. Sometimes there is a certain need to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness or to do a particular service to the spiritual master, and that, that may mean that a person has to take on some kind of an austerity, may have to go into a situation which would be less comfortable, and for doing that, that is a type of an austerity. But it might be necessary in devotional service, of voluntarily accepting that type of a situation is more purifying, you see. Just like to go out to open temples and to preach is always... it’s an austere program.

To live in the holy dhāma where the preaching always begins, holy dhāmas there's the most protected place, where you have all devotees, the environment is perfect. One, you know... to go out in society and open up a center of preaching, then, you there's you're always going to be confronted by various kinds of doubting people, challenging people, even aggressive people. In the preaching, you may have various devotees, who are not always, as compatible as other combinations. So, one has to wait, that if it is actually beneficial for serving guru and Kṛṣṇa to be in a specific situation, even it might be somewhat you know, less comfortable than another... but if it's actually helping the Kṛṣṇa conscious movement, it is helping the spiritual master, then one may accept such an austerity, one advice is that initially, we can serve that... in association with like-minded devotees. It makes it easier, but… that’s not the most important thing. But that is... that makes it easier so one should... If one's having a lot of difficulties with certain devotees, the spiritual master may authorize for one to live in a situation where it's more compatible. But... ultimate consideration is, what’s ever going to be more, if we have the strength to accept some inconvenience if it’s actually more beneficial for serving Kṛṣṇa, then accepting that, would be more purifying for us.

Even if we are hankering for the association of some devotee, that’s not unnatural. Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura always wanted to have the association of Śrīnivāsācārya and his disciple Rāmacandra Kavirāja. Even though Śrīnivāsācārya and Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura practically on the level of Godbrothers. And Rāmacandra Kavirāja was a disciple of his Godbrother in a sense, although they weren’t exactly, they may have the same guru but in a sense of their stature, they were on that level but Rāmacandra was such a nice devotee, he had such an intimate relationship with them, that he wanted to have his association, so, he sang that song ‘rāmachandra saṅga māge’, that "I’m always hankering for the association of the Rāmacandra." But you can be guaranteed, that Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura never avoided doing any preaching, or doing any kind of devotional service, you know, because of the consideration that, he didn't have the association of the Rāmacandra Kavirāja, but he might have hankered that it might be nice to have his association. Whenever available, he would take it, but they took the primal duty what’s the first thing was serving the guru and Gaurāṅga. The second consideration was trying have as good association as possible. We need good association, of devotees who are more advanced, who are more steady. Now, of course, we have 20th century you can get on the phone. If you have a devotee, that by talking with that devotee, they get some kind of inspiration one service to guru, one can phone her up, or write a letter, keep association that way, you see. So, sometimes you can associate, even by now like we have our reunions. We like association with certain devotees.

Just like I have every nice relationship, I’m always hankering for the association of Bhavānada Mahārāja, Viṣṇupāda. He just phoned me up today and told me about different things happening and I was telling him recent developments in Māyāpur, in India. You know, it’s very nice to have a little association. He said, " I was just praying Rādhā-Mādhava and then I heard that you we're in America, so I just phoned up."

I told him that... how Rādhā-Mādhava were televised through over the whole India.

He said, "I just phoned Calcutta, but they didn't tell me any of these things. (Laughter) He said, "Well, they were thinking of something else." They probably didn’t know because, when I went to the South India, I got the information, you see. Sitting in Calcutta, they always tell you it’s the all India television but you never really believe that really goes all over India. Don't know if they have it that far together. But people in South India did see it. Anyway we can get association of devotees now. And not that every movement we have to have, you know, someone holding the hands so to speak for association, although it's nice. It’s encouraging. We have to see what is our service going to is more needed. Also, where we can be most utilized. If we leave our service will a particular situation suffer? There are many considerations. In any case, disciple should... if a spiritual master is present, then he can take the guidance of the spiritual master and follow those instructions. That’s more important.

Just like Prabhupāda would send someone to Africa. Now that person probably the furthest thing you want to do is preach in Africa. And what would be consider... much nicer to preach in say America, at the outset, you see, or preach in some other country you know, where the Godbrothers were all there, different people... No. They have requested, Please preach in Africa." So they went there, but once they went there, they could feel the presence of Kṛṣṇa. They could see that the people there were receptive, but it was difficult physically, it might have been different culturally. But because of following that, they became stronger, it was able to counteract whatever obstacles they had. There was a special mercy for them.

Prabhupāda, when he used to come to Calcutta, he said, "I don’t know, how you people are living there?" He said, "I couldn’t even live in Calcutta. I was born here! He said, I left Calcutta when I was a gṛhastha, moved to other cities, I couldn’t, I didn't like it. But because you are here... because it’s my birth place, and because you are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness the... its... it’s the biggest city and a place where Lord Caitanya’s movement started in Gauḍa-bhūmi, in Bengal… I’m very very grateful to you. Kṛṣṇa will give you thousands of times more mercy because you are taking on, you see, this austerity."

We took away some auster… we didn't think it was much of an austerity, it’s some of us didn't, because we knew that it was pleasing to Prabhupāda after some acclimatization, it doesn’t really seem that austere but... That way, Westerners, when they take Kṛṣṇa consciousness they actually get a special mercy because their habits and their life style is so much different that Kṛṣṇa recognizes for them it’s a big sacrifice, but when once you become a devotee, you don’t really feel it’s a sacrifice because you are happy, and then with all the so-called material situations, you weren't happy. But just like Indian people they, they tend to always glorify, "We always want to have some foreigners some foreigners, I mean to say, Americans and Westerners go to Asia and India to help preach there, because when they see, who so here the American's looked around the world as the richest country in the world. Streets are lined with the gold. We know that asphalt is chipping here and the bridges are collapsing and you know, it’s not all roses, but there is a lot of violence, but from other third world they kind of think that America land of the free, roads are all… you know, paved with gold. So here they see that, "Here all these people born with a silver spoon in their mouth. They're taking..." in India especially when they see the foreigners and they're vegetarian and they are chanting and they say, "Oh, they're pure brāhmaṇas." They offer the greatest respect. "Oh! How have you given up all of the luxuries?"

In India, especially Bangladesh and Bengal, when uh... when uh... I have seen that when a foreign, you know, an American mātāji, devotee, Vaiṣṇavī goes there, I have seen as many as a 150 Bengali women bow down at their feet, wanting to, "Oh! You have given up so many; you must be a great devotee." They say, "We can’t even give up this or that you know." In their humility, they think, "We're so fallen. Such a great devotee!" you see, so it’s definitely... from one angle of vision it might be austere, from a subjective point, sometimes it doesn’t seem austere. But whatever... if we take some kind of austerity, even we might be hankering, " Oh, this was..." Right?

Now, Prabhupāda, he came here, and thought, "What am I doing here? These people are so passionate so ignorant." You see, sometimes he would think "Maybe I should to go back to the dhāma. Will I be able to..." But then he'd, "No, I have to. It's the order of guru. I should take this up." So he had that order of the spiritual master driving him. So he continued to preach Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So sometimes we may hanker for a particular devotee to serve, we have to see that, that even though we might have liked that situation is so much comfortable what’s actually more necessary, what’s going to be more pleasing to our spiritual master that personal service to guru is also type of surrender. We might want to do something for Kṛṣṇa but if it’s too much what we want to do is not really devotion; it’s actually like, karma-yoga, offering the fruits of our activities, and bhakti-yoga means, we do what ultimately Kṛṣṇa wants.

Man proposes - God disposes. We may propose but Kṛṣṇa may or may not accept that. He may actually want us to do... like, Arjuna proposed “I don’t want to fight, I think I’ll become bābājī now. I'm just going to be a beggar.” (laughter) Kṛṣṇa didn't accept that.

He said, "No! I didn't train you, I didn't bring you here in this world as a king, as a kṣatriya that finally you come to the battlefield and you want to become a bābājī, you want to become some kind of a beggar. I want you to defeat all these demons; I want to establish a God-conscious government in the world, and if you don’t do it, I'm gonna do it anyway, but I have brought you here for that purpose."

So then when Arjuna could realize, it's Kṛṣṇa’s desire, "Alright." Is that okay?

Any question Bhakta Sanders? Bhaktin Jan?

Question: Sometimes while engaging in devotional service, I find it I have all these different problems. I have material motives behind it (inaudible). I’m hankering to get rid of these material anxieties and get released from the bodily concept, and I get into greater anxiety because I'm aware that there's something that maybe I should be more inclined to do this devotional service out of love for God, which I feel to some extent is really not there. (inaudible) and I'm anxious to know is that just part of the process. Will that grow with time, or is that something that I need to understand?

Jayapatākā Swami: That’s why in the initial stages, we do devotional service according to rules and regulations. That scripture says everything, even; initially, we can’t claim that we have love for God. We may have a desire for love for God, we may have other... still residual desires may be there. So... but we may follow whatever is according to the scripture, according to the rules and regulations, according to... more as a... as a regulation, that "I should do it. It's my duty." So when one's not doing some... out of duty, that, that would imply, it's not that spontaneous of love, as doing something spontaneously out of love. But by acting in that way, because if we did love Kṛṣṇa, we would be doing something like that. So we are doing the closest thing, to what we would do, if we had love for Kṛṣṇa. For we may be doing out of the sense of duty, out of the intellectual understanding with this is the order of the śāstra or guru. So we do it as a matter of duty. By practicing in that way, by surrendering we get purified. And with the purification gradually our spontaneous attraction for Kṛṣṇa increases. Our spontaneous devotion increases, and then gradually a stage reaches where the mechanical process of following the rules and regulations in the manner of duty is transformed into a spontaneous stage.

First once spontaneous thing is eager very... eager to follow the rules and regulations when it comes to higher-level where then one is completely dedicated following whatever the orders of the spiritual master are. And... irregardless of any other consideration. So... that rāgānugā stage is considered to be the preliminary stage of love for Godhead. And then when we have complete realization of Kṛṣṇa and our self, at that stage we are in prema. That comes, that’s the final stage culmination. That’s the complete stage of liberation, but even before that, ecstatic devotion, different stages are there, spontaneous devotion.

So, in the beginning, that may happen. By, that’s why it’s called yoga or intelligence... buddhi-yoga, by intelligence we have to see that, "What is the thing which is more pleasing to Kṛṣṇa? What is going to more beneficial for my Kṛṣṇa consciousness?" Sometimes, the guru may ask a disciple, to do particular service, it might be actually the thing they wanted to do. Then, we can think, "Well my goodness! That’s exactly the material desire I had, but I’m being asked to do that. So then may be, I shouldn’t do it, because, it’s some kind of māyā." No, that also, you can't renounce it, even if you like doing it, just to be artificially renounced. (laughter) Someone might love to eat you know, they artificially, they don’t want to eat. They don’t want... when you say, "No, you have to take this feast today." And they think, "No. even I like it, so I won’t do it." That’s all artificial. So, you don’t do things like that. Sometimes you might be asked to do something you don’t like to do, you see. Maybe, someone asks you, "Please sweep the floor today."

"I don’t like sweeping. I would much rather make the flower garlands.” (laughter) But, it needs to be... so then one sweeps the floor that, “Alright. This is my service today, so I'm sweeping.” In this way one gets purified, and then one starts to realize that, no matter what the service is to Kṛṣṇa, that the transcendental bliss and relationship with Kṛṣṇa is there. Sometimes it might be something very compatible with what our present frame of mind is. Sometime it might be something not exactly what we want to do. But by practicing, automatically, one will be put in certain circumstances that sometime... even under what seems to be the difficult circumstances, we shouldn’t avoid these difficulties. That’s also a type of seasoning. That’s a type of purification.

You can't polish the brass... You want to polish it without rubbing. There has to be some abrasion there. Our attachments are there, sometime we have to, we have to... you know, accept the, what the little inconvenience that little mental obstacle that’s there is actually attachment. And by tolerating that... we become actually more fixed in spiritual... Then where, we are not... we become freed from being dependent on our mind. Even the mind might, materialistic mind might... be comfortable in a certain situation. So we are always striving to achieve that situation. But that’s not, that’s not the best position to be in. we become actually dependent on those situations. But when we actually we can surrender to Kṛṣṇa. Then irregardless of the situation would be satisfied, will be self-situated you will be atmārāma ca munayaḥ. You'll be on the transcendental platform.

A person might be very attached to very regulative life, very specific situation, but suddenly now the third world war may come there are gonna be bombs everywhere, and we're gonna have to have people have to do various services in a more spontaneous way. People might be coming to the devotees for... various types of spiritual guidance and help. So at that time then you know, whatever amount of spiritual strength a person been able to develop, that’s what is been to pull one through. You know, under the perfect ideal protected situation, one can maintain, anyone can maintain, you see, if they have the desire. But under difficult situations, then ones put to test.

So, in the devotional service such things happen, Kṛṣṇa does it that he puts us sometimes to the test. as a type of seasoning. He puts us in a little cross road where we have to decide, and by deciding towards Kṛṣṇa, when that comes, to do whatever is going to be more favorable to Kṛṣṇa, then, whether it is favorable to us or to our own mental idea at that point whether it's slightly even exactly now what we wanted. Then we actually become transcendental. That gives us actually a deep strength.